The logic for completing/raising in Stud 8

[Bogglor]

Hi all. I've been doing some thinking lately about the merits of completing/raising on 3rd street in Stud8 and I was hoping I could get some data together about how other players in this forum handle the situations I'll describe. I'm a pretty successful player at the 10/20 games on Party, but I'm always looking to improve, especially considering how good the games there have been of late.

Completing on 3rd is always situational depending on the type of hand, I realize, but as a general rule I find that in a non-steal situation, I am completing with these types of hands:

Small pair + Ace (door or no)

1 big, 1 small, Ace door card (all suited with <=2 suit showing elsewhere)

Any rolled up hand

Any hand where I have a pair (concealed or no) where there are no higher cards behind me to act or only 1 or 2 low cards still to act other than the bringin.

I've done quite well at these games but I don't know if this is an aggressive enough approach or if I should be completing more often with other playable hands. For example, I tend to limp and call completions with:

1 gappers like 457
2 gappers like 236
small pair + low card (catch good on 4th or immediate exit - I sense that this could be a leak of mine, but I'm not sure)
3 straights
3 suited babies (I tend to raise if I have an ace up)

I also tend to limp in with 3 random low cards if they're not 8s without an ace. I tend not to play stuff like 238, 348, etc. but I often find myself in the pot for 4th street at least with stuff like 237 or a38.

Given that I complete so few hands on 3rd street, I wonder if I'm becoming too easy to read. The logic that at least I've held to until now is that if I truly do have a good hand like a 1 gapper, 3 straight, 3 suited, etc. then I want more people in the pot against me to increase the chance that I scoop a good one if I make my hand. I guess I also have it in my head that it's lower variance if I just call the bring-in instead of completing or even raising, given that the hand will brick out a lot of the time anyway. I'm not sure if this is too passive an approach for third street, but I tend to be very aggressive on the later streets regardless of whether or not I've made anything yet. Since I didn't complete coming in, I'm often given credit for different hands than I actually hold, which usually works in my favor.

Anyone have any thoughts on what types of hands you're usually completing with and why? And if you DON'T complete with certain hands deliberately, how come?

Hopefully we can get a good dicussion going.

[mscags]

I think you're really missing out by not completing with hands like 234 345 456 etc and three suited babies. These are big hands and I will usually complete with them. If the table is super tight though I might limp with some of these in early position. I would try to stay away from playing some of those one way hands like 237 and 348. They don't have much value at all unless it is multiway and you are the only one going low. Besides that they are trash hands. I also like completing with hands like A23 or A45, especially if the Ace is my door card. I like to take an aggressive approach on third street usually but I wont do a lot of jamming on third unless I have real monster hands. I find it is too hard to play my hands when I brick off and the pot is so big. I don't play too much 10-20 but I have noticed that the games look really good lately, but the 5-10 and 3-6 games don't look so good. Have you been noticing the same thing? What's your sn by the way?

[Bogglor]

The 10/20 games have been great lately, but you're right -- the 5/10 has been non-existant and I don't really play the 3/6 anymore so I can't comment on that. I'll keep my SN a secret. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I guess my argument for not completing with 3 straights and 3 flushes is that if I do catch a card that gives me an open ender or a four flush, I want as many people staying as possible and at 10/20 at least, completing tends to eliminate most of the people that will stay with very mediocre hands. I see a lot of people calling the bringin with crap like (K3)4 and then continuing if they catch low on 4th. These are the people I like to punish with raises on 5th-6th if I've made my straight while they're still drawing to a low or have convinced themselves they can make a high hand.

I'm surprised to see that this thread hasn't gotten any more responses than yours. Kind of saddening, but I guess the trend that I've noticed here is that your board nick needs to be "established" before any of your messages get any traction with the regular posters.

[buffbrad54]

While I am a low limit player, I tend to complete only after several people have entered the pot and I have a very strong drawing hand like three suited babies. This just adds value to the hand if you get lucky enough to hit it. The other reason to complete is when you are playing split kings and you want to limit the field. I also tend to raise if I get any 3 bicycle cards. The low limits are really terrible though, so I'm not quite sure what the optimum strategy at the 10/20 game would be. I assume there are rich idiots playing there just as their are less rich idiots playing at the 1/2 level. But I think you gain more value in raising with strong drawing hands. The risk is worth the reward in my opinion. If you brick on 4th and everyone catches well, just fold.

[mscags]

Yeah last night I saw like 4 10-20 games running at like 3Eastern in the morning with great avg pot sizes. Anyway though, yeah I do like just limping in with the three straights and three flushes if I think that completing will kill all of my action. However if 3-4 people have limped in already than I'm definitely completing and if I'm at a table where I know that there are 2-3 people who will call the completion cold with just about any 3 than I'm going to complete as well.