Laying Down KK preflop?

[J Chap]

I understand the "not-at-these-stakes" argument (most people at these stakes, ToyBux, just generally overplay hands, even many of the weak-tight players. if they didn't, they'd have built up enough bankroll to play in higher stakes games).

what i don't understand is the "rarely do i ever fold KK preflop in any scenario at any stakes" argument. granted, i'm not good enough to lay them down when I should. Still, if i think there's a 50% chance of me being a 20/80 dog, I should be able to say, "i don't like the way this hand feels. if he's doing this with QQ, I'll get his donk-dollars soon enough."

In a live cash game just last night, I heckled my friend as he mucked his KK preflop. The fact of the matter was, he had raised, and then another guy raised him, and then another guy went all-in. He said, "man, I have a serious hand, guys." Then he mucked it. The next guy folded his QQ, and the all-in guy revealed his AA.

Some people just like to wait for spots when they really feel like they are best, AND when at least 5/7 of their hand has been dealt to them.

Just to reiterate one more time, I am not these people, and I am currently unable to lay down KK preflop. However, I think I would be a better player if, in some VERY RARE, heartbreaking situations, I could lay them down.

Hell, this guy with the KK in the live game was ready to lay his down to the QQ reraiser, even before the AA all-in.

wow, are you still reading? sheesh, thanks!

j chap

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
f i think there's a 50% chance of me being a 20/80 dog, I should be able to say, "i don't like the way this hand feels. if he's doing this with QQ, I'll get his donk-dollars soon enough."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have time to do the math at this moment (I have meetings all day, yuck). But my intuition tells me that if you do the math and use the numbers you've provided, the math will tell you to call. I'd invite someone else to do the math.

To give the results of the hand, I ended up folding. UTG+1 showed JTs, and MP2 showed AA. The AA held up as no card higher than an eight hit the board.

I'm not going to fold KK preflop more than 1 time out of a thousand (this was the first time I'd ever done it, which is really why I posted).

I really am suprised that so many people discounted the idea of folding this based on a specific read. I guess I'll have to think about this more, and probably pay attention more to how weak-tight players play queens preflop.

[4_2_it]

I've never folded them preflop and somehow they've managed to still be my second most profitable hand. Why mess with success?

[pokernose]

I have to go against the crowd here. Go with your read. Good players fold the best hand occasionally. I don't lay down big pairs very often, but when my read says I'm bad I generally trust it.

[Isura]

I folded KK preflop at nl25 (full ring) yesterday. Villain was 6/0 after 200 hands and pushed over my 8bb preflop raise. I think I did the right thing.

[skaughty]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded KK preflop at nl25 (full ring) yesterday. Villain was 6/0 after 200 hands and pushed over my 8bb preflop raise. I think I did the right thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 25NL and 50NL I've seen this be either TT-JJ or AA nearly everytime it comes from players with VPIP of less than 10 and PFR of less than 2. For that profile - I'm calling. If somebody truly has 200 hands with 0 PFR, I'm inclined to agree, as the numbers say they've already been dealt Kings w/o raising.

Scott

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I folded KK preflop at nl25 (full ring) yesterday. Villain was 6/0 after 200 hands and pushed over my 8bb preflop raise. I think I did the right thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 25NL and 50NL I've seen this be either TT-JJ or AA nearly everytime it comes from players with VPIP of less than 10 and PFR of less than 2. For that profile - I'm calling. If somebody truly has 200 hands with 0 PFR, I'm inclined to agree, as the numbers say they've already been dealt Kings w/o raising.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was lying. I called and he offcourse showed AA. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

We are still talking about what is and is not +EV. If you have these extremely rare situations where folding the second best in poker ends up saving you bets, it is akin to chasing a draw and hitting. Your chances of being right are slim, unless, as J chap, said you are a very good player. Aside from a live game against a familiar, pedantic, and ingenious player who twirls around and taps his heels every time he gets AA or something stupid like that, this play simply isn't positive EV.

This thread is pulling more responses than I thought even possible

Cambraceres

[DoomSlice]

I folded QQ in a VERY similar situation (which most people will probably say is the right thing to do) and was shown AJs and AQs... both guys had never gotten out of line before. Just goes to show you that you can never be sure of your reads at this level.