It's time to play, "Bet that River?" - big pocket pair edition

fryKing · #1 07-09-2004, 01:10 PM

A few mildly tricky pocket pair hands from last night, I always have trouble with these situations. What's your river action on these 4 hands? Feel free to correct my flop and turn play as well while you're at it.

Clearly the other question that comes out of this is, What size skirt do I wear, but we don't need to talk about that right now...

Hand 1:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds.

River: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero....

Hand 2:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (8.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero...

Hand 3:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (11 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button calls, BB folds.
River: (9.5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ...

Hand 4:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, CO folds, BB folds.

River: (9.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero....

fryKing · #2 07-09-2004, 05:24 PM

anybody? anybody? Bueler?

I just got into a 20 minute discussion with a very good player (mostly NL though) about the wisdom of raising TT in the BB in the first place. Now I'm even more confused. Help!

joker122 · #3 07-09-2004, 05:54 PM

The only one that's really obvious is hand 4 (obvious bet, I mean). The others are tough. I'm really bad in these spots and never know whether to check fold the turn or bet the turn and check call the river or bet each street... I'm eager to here other's arguments here. Sorry I couldn't be of help though.

Jeffage · #4 07-09-2004, 07:23 PM

Hello,

Hand 1: When you get three callers on that ragged flop and the middle card pairs, you're generally f'd. Someone called that flop with a queen or a 9 and now the 9 beats you. I would check and probably fold, esp to a bet and a caller. But likely to just a bet.

Hand 2: I'd check the river because I don't see getting called by any hands you beat and I don't see better hands folding to a bet. You can check-call and hopefully pick up a bluff if you want though you're likely beat. Play good poker on the end.

Hand 3: Why do you give so much action on the turn when it seems so obvious you're beaten? You bet an ace high ragged flop and got two caller...that's the last money I'm putting in this pot. Don't think you always have to bet the turn.

Hand 4: The bet on the turn is suspect if the guy turned trips. Many would checkraise. So I'd be tempted to raise right there...you will get called often by an 8. If I just called the turn which is sometimes ok, I'd raise when the 3rd 9 slides off. Quads is less likely and you may have counterfeited a turned boat (if he flopped set).

Jeff

Jeffage · #5 07-09-2004, 07:24 PM

Oh, that's another thing. You don't have to always raise the 10-10 out of position here (though it isn't really wrong persay). Calling may give you better strategic options later...like checkraising a ragged flop to protect ur hand.

Jeff

fryKing · #6 07-10-2004, 12:50 AM

Thanks for the reply.

Hand 1 <TT>, 96Q97 board: I bet out and folded to a raise. Check folding seemed reasonable but I thought it might also induce a bluff that I couldn't call.

Hand 2,[TT], 84K9A 3 hearts: I checked and called his bet, since the ace is a good card for them to bluff with and I was getting 10:1 on my call. My opponent showed A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], meaning he called the flop with bottom pair, then called with it again on the turn when a flush hit. So it goes.

Hand 3: [KK] A2854: I basically gave up here and checked. Luckily my opponent checked behind with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for bottom pair and MHIG. He went on the buddy list and made me feel a lot better about my call in hand 2.

Hand 4: [KK] 38999 2 diamonds. I clearly should have raised either the turn or the river but I goofed and just called. Opponent has K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHIG. Nice table.

rjc199 · #7 07-10-2004, 01:16 PM

hand 1: bet
hand 2: check-call
hand 3: bet
hand 4: call. I would have raised the turn, it would have either gotten me a free showdown, or he would have 3-bet and I would drop. Many guys will bet into you when a scare comes.

rjc199 · #8 07-10-2004, 01:27 PM

Hand 3: I need to introduce you to some of Dynasty's posts. When somebody calls that doesn't mean "I have top pair", it means "I have a pulse". If somebody really did have an ace they would raise you to generate action. This kind of thinking is weak-tight and keeps you from realizing your goals.

sthief09 · #9 07-10-2004, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: I need to introduce you to some of Dynasty's posts. When somebody calls that doesn't mean "I have top pair", it means "I have a pulse". If somebody really did have an ace they would raise you to generate action. This kind of thinking is weak-tight and keeps you from realizing your goals.

[/ QUOTE ]

a lot of passive players think you have AK and won't raise you with an A. when the flop comes A-rag-rag with the most uncoordinated board ever, and 3 people call the turn and river, that means they probably have something.

rjc199 · #10 07-10-2004, 05:32 PM

Regardless I think this is a value bet. Worse hands will call. Would you fold this hand to 1 bet? You were never going to fold this hand unless the action got hot and heavy. You might as well bet. The only reason to check-call the river is to catch 2nd or 3rd pair betting, but I don't think they would with that ace on the board. You are in the lead - act like it. Look how they are just calling. Give them a bet to call and make them happy.