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#1
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
Elysium, my man!
If I thought that I was beat by a bigger pair or an overcard shouldn't I have folded pre-flop? The fact is, I thought before and still do during the hand, that I'm ahead, especially when the second Ace hits the turn and MP bets right into me. If he has an Ace isn't a thinking player going to go for the check raise and try to trap both his opponents? Especially if he knows I'm very likely to bet out the turn if checked to? Isn't it worth raising when bet into me if I think I can get him to possibly lay down K's. Q's or a smaller Ace? I especially need to move UTG of some silly Q or K right? |
#2
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
[ QUOTE ]
Elysium, my man! If I thought that I was beat by a bigger pair or an overcard shouldn't I have folded pre-flop? The fact is, I thought before and still do during the hand, that I'm ahead, especially when the second Ace hits the turn and MP bets right into me. If he has an Ace isn't a thinking player going to go for the check raise and try to trap both his opponents? Especially if he knows I'm very likely to bet out the turn if checked to? Isn't it worth raising when bet into me if I think I can get him to possibly lay down K's. Q's or a smaller Ace? [/ QUOTE ] IMHO, all of your responses so far sound like an ex post facto attempt to rationalize your play. The fact is that very very few opponents will 3-bet the turn with a hand that doesn't beat yours. It sounds like you ran into one of them, but I'm not sure if it says much regarding the correct (in an average sense) play in this situation. |
#3
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
Hi Nightwish,
Not trying to rationalize anything after the fact. I wouldn't have posted the hand if I didn't want criticism. |
#4
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
I think you can rule out most aces, because of the lack of flop checkraise. he is in a perfect position to whipsaw the weak guy, almost any A will checkraise. my only problem is I don't think your opponent will make this play with 22-44, so I think it's a marginal situation where you are ahead of 88-TT and losing sometimes to KK-QQ and sometimes he will have AK there despite our read.
--turnipmonster |
#5
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
I would have just called the turn bet. He's representing an ace. If he doesn't have one fine, you can catch his bluff(s). Would he isolate from middle position with an weak ace? Even if he did, I doubt he would 3 bet the turn after you raised. Would he three bet with KK or QQ? The second ace reduces the chances you have one but if that's what he thinks why 3 bet? He could just call your raise and check call the river if he misses the boat.
As for betting with an ace on the turn, he may be afraid you'll check behind him. Afterall, you must have the case ace if you have one, so he'd have to check hoping you'll bluff at the pot. The weak player may have an ace. If not, then going for the overcall isn't that bad, is it? He might be calling with a hopeless hand. |
#6
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
Hi George,
I prefer to win the pot right there. By raising the turn I get the 3rd player out with any possible K or Q. The presence of a 3rd player when I raise looks more like an Ace to MP, so there is even a slight chance he may lay down Kings or queens here, if I'm not ahead. |
#7
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
See, I just don't get that line of thinking ... wanting to "win the pot right there" which is all fine and good, but then you get 3 bet ... so know you must consider you are beat.
you are probably just drawing ... perhaps dead to boot ... so let's balance drawing dead and an overagressive play as negating factors and you are getting ~14-1 on a ~22-1 call ... looks like bad poker to me. The river bet furthers the point and should drive the knife in further. As elysium said, "He expects you to call. You are going to lose." You had a plan, it didn't work ... so shut down ... and btw, shutting down doesn't mean calling ... if it does, then hell, I better get in your game. where was this 20 game ... in the city? |
#8
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
[ QUOTE ]
By raising the turn I get the 3rd player out with any possible K or Q. [/ QUOTE ] The board is AA56r. You're worried about folding out a King or Queen? I don't get it. |
#9
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
hi noo
the problem there is that now, after you raise, his call of your raise gives him even better odds than you to spike. that, combined with all the reasons keeping you within the math line, and he has an even easier call than you. KK and QQ has every hand that you may have beat, beaten, plus JJ. these aggressives call. you are not getting correct odds to attempt a fold. |
#10
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Re: 20-40 Pocket Jacks hand
Hi Elysium,
Odds aside, I think my raise gave him an opportunity to play me off my hand, wheras my normal line would be to call. I just wanted the 3rd party out and maybe got carried away here. I always maintained that I was most likely ahead. |
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