333 - please correct my confusion...

#1 08-06-2005, 06:36 PM

(1st post, please excuse inanities...)

Not being playing for long, trying to assimilate lessons of SSHE, slowly... Sometimes seem to make sense, other times...
I'd be grateful if someone could test / disparage my thinking here as I'm uncomfortably suspicious that it reveals a deep seated lack of nous and a future full of reloads...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Wasn't sure about following the cap, but thought the amount of money going into the pot would make it worthwhile if I did hit the set. (Terminology Qn - I think that's value betting. Is that right?)

Flop: (17 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Again, although the set didn't hit, the pot was getting big. I have 12 to 1 of hitting the set by the river and 17SB. I didn't raise because I thought I was being brave enough putting another bet in when I didn't hit the flop. What should I have done? If the turn doesn't do anything I'd fold then.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, CO calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

The set arrives. I raised because, because, well because I wanted to get rid of the other two... I thought the only real threat would be KK as any other pp were unlikely to have provoked the PF action. Inconsistent, I know, because there was I with 33... Anyway, if CO had KK, why didn't he reraise?

River: (15.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB Code:<hr /><pre> </pre><hr /> 

OK, as you can see, at this stage, I can't pretend my thoughts are particularly consistent or logical. I'd be very grateful if somebody could explain whether I missed anything or if it's all a load of nonsense and I should have binned the lot from the beginning...

Many thanks

David

Bradyams · #2 08-06-2005, 06:46 PM

Welcome to the forums!

First, don't cold-call with this hand pre-flop. Fold it to UTG+1's bet.

Second, fold this flop. Given that you are getting 18:1 immediate odds (It's 22.5:1 to hit your set on the turn) this is probably an okay call to try and hit a three on the turn since the extra 4.5 small bets should be very easy to make up for on the turn and river if you do hit. However, there are two reasons you shoudl fold this. One is CO still hasn't slowed down since his PF three-bet, so he may raise. The chance that he may raise gives you worse odds to draw. The second, is one of your outs puts three to a flush on the board so it is not a full out, and can get you into some trouble.

Also, to clarify you didn't raise the turn to knock other players out, you raised it for value since there is a really good chance you have the best hand.

Keep posting hands, and read SSHE if you haven't yet.

Henke · #3 08-06-2005, 06:47 PM

PF call is marginal and depends on table conditions. You need to be pretty sure it won't ge reraised behind you. But when it is reraised, you need to call.

The flop call is marginal, again, you don't want it to be raised behind you. If you are pretty sure you only need to call one it's ok.

River, tough one... I really want to put a reraise in, but I cannot see any hand besides KK that CO could play this way. A read on CO would be really helpful here... With no read calling is probably fine.

bozlax · #4 08-06-2005, 06:50 PM

Let's see:

Preflop: your FIRST call is the one I'm most worried about. You're in bad postition, faced with a raise from an even worse position, holding a hand that doesn't have a whole lot of room for improvement (you've got 2 outs, or all you're beating is a pair of deuces and high-card). Get out right there. If you do call that, once it's 2 back to you 6.5:1 isn't good enough odds to make this call, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
I have 12 to 1 of hitting the set by the river...

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the turn doesn't do anything I'd fold then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop: these two thoughts are mutually exclusive, that is, you can't use them at the same time. Either you're basing your call on going all the way to the river or you're only looking at the next card. Either way, you don't have the odds.

Turn: the raise is fine, but when CO (preflop 3-bettor, remember) smooth-calls I start worrying. You suddenly spring to life when an offsuit 3 falls, and he just casually calls you? Not a good sign.

River: I'm fine with it, but I'm pretty sure that CO shows you 99 or KK for the slow-played flopped set.

Deamon2 · #5 08-06-2005, 06:50 PM

the first flop call is suspect, you really don't want to cold call here. That being said, you should call when it's capped back to you.

the flop call is tough. Considering you hit a beautiful turn, you will be taking a massive pot. I'd probably peel closing the action. Your effective odds stand up to be less than 1sb to see the turn, however. With the pf 3-bettor behind you, you're probably going to have to pay at least 2 sb to see the turn. Also, if you hit your set, your position sucks. If UTG+1 bets again, you're going to face the field with 2 cold when you raise, which will undoubtedly get you HU with UTG+1. I would fold the flop, taking those two points into consideration. (quick point- when you hit your set you want other people to call you. You almost always have the best hand, and want to extract the maximum value. so, your goal is to trap the field for another bet, not limit it)

even though you're going to kill the field, you should raise here as you did. The CO calling 2 cold is strange, but it doesn't worry me. If he's slowplaying a better hand, he's missing a lot of value here. Your hand is very well disguised (he called all that with 33?!?!), and is almost definitely best.

the river bet/call is fine. there are a tons of hands here that CO has that you beat, and only a few that beat you. I would consider raising here, and kicking the neighbor's cat when he caps. Like I said before, there's no way he's putting you on 33, so there's a huge chance you're good here.

as a side note, if he has a hand that beats your set, he really misplayed this hand, especially on the flop.

_Kevin_ · #6 08-06-2005, 06:55 PM

I'm by no means an expert so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Fold when it's 2 to you preflop. You will only hit a set 1 in 8 times on the flop and you really aren't getting the right odds since it may well be heads up. When it's capped back to you, you are getting something like 7:1 (14:2) on your call and you will certainly make that up if you hit your set so the call is fine.

I would fold the flop. You are getting 16:1 on your money here but you only have 1.5 to 1.75 outs (the 3 of diamonds may make someone a flush or give them a flush draw and someone may already have a set so you need to discount your outs). Even with 2 outs (21.5:1), you don't have the immediate odds to call here. You can argue you have the implied odds to call but I would wait for a better spot.

I would play the turn the same way. There is so much money in the pot, they are likely to call anyway. If they are drawing to a flush they still have odds to draw so this is basically a value bet not a place where you can protect your hand.

I don't know what to make of the river, CO has taken a very weird line. My guess is you are beat (probably KK by CO) but the pot is too big to fold and he may be misplaying his hand badly.

Greg J · #7 08-06-2005, 07:31 PM

Hey there.

Here is one thinking flaw:
[ QUOTE ]
I have 12 to 1 of hitting the set by the river and 17SB.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but you have to consider that you are NOT all in, so you are not taking into consideration bets you would likely have to call on the turn.

Also, you are drawing to a hand that you can hit and still loose. How happy are you really to hit the 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? Plus, you have poor relative position -- someone else might raise behind you. All of this indicates you should fold this flop.

Preflop: You should let this go. Don't cold call this when yr relative position is so bad. Cold calling is something you should rarely do.

These are the two big mistakes. I probably would have 3 bet the river, but this pales in comparisson to the mistakes on the first two streets.

Eeegah · #8 08-06-2005, 07:43 PM

Unless you's psychic, fold 33 preflop to that raise. Then fold it again when it's capped back to you. Fold it a third time when you miss your flop and you're bet into. No comments on your play past the turn cause I don't want to justify how you played it up to there.

No offense, but I'd suggest moving down to Stars .05/.10 or similar nanolimits for a while. You really need to take a good look at SSHE (preferrably after reading a beginner book as well such as Winning Low Limit Hold'Em, Getting Started in Hold'Em or Internet Texas Hold'em), and learn how to apply the concepts in a cheap environment. You're going to hemmorage a lot of cash playing this way.

Redd · #9 08-06-2005, 07:51 PM

Hey,
I agree with all the poker advice given, so I won't really dwell on it. I just wanted to add that despite some mistakes in the hand, for a first post you did a really good job of posting.

People who

1) take the time to explain their thoughts in a hand, and
2) embrace suggestions and are willing to consider that they may have misplayed a hand

almost always go the furthest in these forums. I presume you've been lurking for a while because it looks like you're doing a great job of both.

damaniac · #10 08-06-2005, 07:55 PM

I agreed with most of your advice, but this

[ QUOTE ]
Then fold it again when it's capped back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

made me throw up a little in my mouth, folding a pair getting 15:2.