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  #1  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:46 PM
jason_t jason_t is offline
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Default 2/4 KTs

I locked the Royal Flush Flop thread because the only interesting discussion that can come out of it is concerning the following.

Assume readless.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:49 PM
thirddan thirddan is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

Raise it up.

About the only possibility I can see where I am not raising is if its one of those tables you sometimes get where the monkey's love to limp but freeze up when it comes to coldcalling.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:04 PM
Los Feliz Slim Los Feliz Slim is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

I limp, because other players seem to limp and/or raise so many hands it's dominated by. But I don't have too much conviction.

Nice save, other thread belonged in BBV.
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:09 PM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

[ QUOTE ]
i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...

[/ QUOTE ]
I first thought it was 10-handed and in that case I think this is a call and not very close to a raise.

Now that's it's 8-handed the chance to buy the button goes up considerably. Still there are 5 players left to act and the risk of getting 3-betted or called by a hand that domintes us are relatively high. Even the players that already limped in might dominate us, but I think the idea of raising here is based on that the limpers are pretty loose, not likely to be dominating us.

So our hands is vulnerable for domination, it plays well multiway, but we're not in that good position. I can see nothing wrong in trying to induce a multiway pot by calling, but I agree this is the boarderline for where a raise will become correct, one position later I'll probably raise.

EDIT: Of course this is also depending on what kind of players are left to act...
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:18 PM
BigBrother BigBrother is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

Easy raise if you have cold-calling machines behind you, or if the table is tight enough to let you buy the button or know you are in trouble if tight players come in behind you.

Overlimping is not bad if you might get a couple of fishy limpers behind you, but I really don't like playing a hand like KT in early position when I could end up playing against EITHER a dominating hand, OR a total crap hand that may get in for cheap and beat my TP when they connect.

Since I am not folding KTs in this spot, I think I'm raising but playing somewhat cautious post-flop with 1-pair and players behind me.
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:18 PM
UCLAseetoK UCLAseetoK is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...

[/ QUOTE ]
I first thought it was 10-handed and in that case I think this is a call and not very close to a raise.

Now that's it's 8-handed the chance to buy the button goes up considerably. Still there are 5 players left to act and the risk of getting 3-betted or called by a hand that domintes us are relatively high. Even the players that already limped in might dominate us, but I think the idea of raising here is based on that the limpers are pretty loose, not likely to be dominating us.

So our hands is vulnerable for domination, it plays well multiway, but we're not in that good position. I can see nothing wrong in trying to induce a multiway pot by calling, but I agree this is the boarderline for where a raise will become correct, one position later I'll probably raise.

EDIT: Of course this is also depending on what kind of players are left to act...

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said (the second quote that is).
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  #8  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:34 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

So much of this depends on who your opponents are.

1. If the limpers are tight, I don't like raising because I may be dominated and want multiway action.

2. If the players behind me are loose and might call with worse hands, I like raising more.

3. If the players behind me are super tight and I can always buy the button, that might be a reason to raise.

4. If the players behind me are normal and will often limp with worse hands but generally only play better/equivalent hands if I raise, I like limping.


If there were one more limper in front of me I'd like raising more. If I were in MP3 or CO, I also like raising more, as I'm more likely to buy the button and less likely to have a dominating hand behind me.

In MP1, though, against standard players, I think usually I like a limp here.
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:21 AM
SlyGuy SlyGuy is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

I think I raise this at 2/4 most of the time.
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2005, 01:44 AM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 KTs

I raise this at 5/10 >50% of the time. On a theoretical level, I can see some reasons not to raise on 2/4:

-The limpers are far less likely to declare their hands/fold a better non-paired hand, even if you raise.
-It is more likely that one of the EP players limped in with a hand that has you dominated (KQ/KJ).
-You are less likely to buy the button by representing a big hand (i.e., one good enough to raise 2 limpers with).
-The raise is relatively less likely to get a player behind you to fold a weak/medium ace.
-It is less likely to be raised behind you when you limp behind.

On the flip side, I think it is more likely that you'll be coldcalled by a hand you dominate (i.e., QT/JT), and more likely that you'll be paid off when YHIG postflop.

FWIW, I tend to think that the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives here, at least when Hero is MP1 (whole different story if we're the CO or button). So I like limping behind & hoping for more limpers.
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