Simple flop question

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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

[Surfbullet]

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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

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Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.

I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.

Surf

[RED_RAIN]

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And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.

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You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?

I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.

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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

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Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.

I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.

Surf

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I see where youre coming from given this board texture. It may seem that a checkraise is unlikley to win the pot since this board is very likely to have hit the raiser. I would still go for the checkraise here though, and heres my logic, flawed or not.

Looking at the preflop action, The button raised after one player limped in....what does this tell me? To me this means that the button can have many hands that missed this board since he could easily have been attempting to isolate the lone limper. Some of the hands the button may have are KQ,QJ,KJ, other weird non-pair iso-type hands, and 99,88,77 and maybe any lower pocket pair that didnt set up. All of these hands will have a difficult time calling me unimproved on the turn.

The action preflop tells me that the button's hand is not that strong which is why I will usually checkraise with this strong of a hand(a flush draw) no matter what the board texture. I also think that if the middle guy doesnt have top pair or a strong draw he will fold which is usually typical. Given that I think there is a higher than normal chance that the button does not have a strong holding even on this board, I do not want to bet out and give the middle guy the chance to call me for one small bet on some weak hand like Tx, or weak draw like any gutshot.

About my 9 or 7 being an out or not. In these shorthanded situations many times the hero will have more outs than he thinks no matter what the texture of the board is since the likelihood of everyone missing the flop is higher than normal. When this is the case, checkraising to get the middle guy out is paramount. And when you add in the fact that a small percentage of the time(maybe 5%)the hero will induce the button to fold a strong hand like Tx or KK unimproved on the turn, this play has even more value. These are the reasons I like checkraising in this situation better than betting out.

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And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.

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You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?

I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.

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If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button just calls, yes I will bet the turn here 100% of the time.

If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy calls and the button calls, I will give up the initiative and check/call the turn(the play is ruined cuz the Middle guy called)

If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button now 3 bets, again I will give up the initiative, and usually check down and hope to hit my hand.

By the way I dont mind getting 3 bet when I have a hand as strong as a flush draw or OESD. Does this cost me in the long run in this situation? Sure it does. But this is just an annoying little cost in the long run sine my hand is strong enough to stand this pressure. No strategy is perfect. Every stategy has its risks, but the reward is winning the pot, and the hero doesnt have to take down many of these pots without the best hand to make up for these annoying little risks of being 3 bet or having our turn bet raised. The key here, is that since the hero already has a calling hand, he is really not risking that much by taking the initiative in this hand.

[Paluka]

I don't really like checkraising here. You kill your odds and often get headsup with the guy who isn't likely to fold.

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I don't really like checkraising here. You kill your odds and often get headsup with the guy who isn't likely to fold.

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I agree with this statement if it is 4 handed or more. In precisely a 3 handed pot, you get more value out of trying to win the pot without making a hand than the odds you give up by checkraising the flop.
By playing this way will you often get heads up with a guy that isnt likely to fold?? Certaintly, but this play doesnt have to work very often to be correct. When it backfires you lose a few extra bets, when it succeeds you win the pot. I believe the reward to risk ratio is high enough to make checkraising the flop +EV relative to betting out the flop. I understand that what I am saying may not be conventional but this is how I approach 3 handed raised pots when I have a flush draw. The idea of checkraising for elimination with a flush draw or OESD just doesnt seem right, but in a 3 handed pot, this is exactly what I will usually do.

[DeezNutz3]

Although a CR does hurt our odds, I don't see a lead on this flop working at all. People are talking about taking this down which in that game I think would happen very little. I would rather put pressure on a very possible marginal holding.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet

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if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.

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Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet

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if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.

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Your point is valid, especially if the player in the middle is a decent to good player. I still would rather checkraise to end any suspense of whether he would call with a marginal hand/marginal draw or not. My goal is to get heads up with the preflop raiser who can easily not have a hand, I feel that check raising this flop will accomplish this goal more than betting out will.