I think my call button got stuck... was it necessarily a bad thing?

MisterKing · #1 11-19-2005, 09:59 PM

It felt super-fishy, but I actually did nothing on this hand but call one bet four times. Given my reads (see below), I can't decide it it was the right thing to do or just chipspewing.

Loose, retarded table... 35 table VPIP, not a whole lot of trickiness, and ace hi was often bet to the bitter end. CO is 36/10.6/2.6 over 50 hands. He is definitely one of the guys to never quit with ace high, as far as I can tell.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.
Yeah, its thin, but I'm getting 12:1! My trips outs are probably goot, and some of the two pair outs probably goot as well, plus the runner runner outs?

Turn: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.
Most of my outs are dirty, but I have a pair, the board is semi-dry, and even after discounting I still probably have 4 to 4.5 weighted outs (3c, the two black sixes, and 1/2 to 3/4 out each for the black aces) . Raising here seems pointless.

River: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.
I typed "worst... call... ever..." as I did this, but I don't know, am I good 8% of the time? I think so.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

sy_or_bust · #2 11-19-2005, 10:07 PM

you have the worst possible pair hand and CO bet the river into 4 players. is this ever a busted draw?

private joker · #3 11-19-2005, 10:27 PM

What in god's name possessed you call this preflop? I'm stunned; I can't remember a PF call this hideous in months. Please share. I'm begging.

#4 11-19-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What in god's name possessed you call this preflop? I'm stunned; I can't remember a PF call this hideous in months. Please share. I'm begging.

[/ QUOTE ]

This call hardly deservers your hyperbole. Certainly 34s would be worth a call in a second here.

MisterKing · #5 11-19-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What in god's name possessed you call this preflop? I'm stunned; I can't remember a PF call this hideous in months. Please share. I'm begging.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may have been a poor PF call, but I see worse all the time, PrivateJoker and I know you do too. I'm getting 9:1 closing the action facing a lineup of players who are driving way too fast routinely and paying off the the bitter end much of the time as well. If I made a pre-flop mistake here, it was surely a small one dollar wise. This doesn't make it a good call, but I think it helps explain the mentality that led to it. I gather I can find several posts just from today in SSH that, in terms of equity & odds, are considerably worse.

As for the river play, it may be right that this is never a bluff... I'm interested in hearing more input on the issue. He actually bet into 3 players, not 4, and as I said in my initial post, his aggression was off the charts (AF-TOT 2.6) and had been caught jamming with ace high a few times already and I'd only seen him play 50 hands. Moreover, I don't even need to be good 8% of the time for this call to be correct.

And just FWIW, running pokerstove on this scenario shows my hand with about 15.4% equity if I set the PF raiser's range to the top 12% of hands (I have his PFR as 10.6, but that's for all positions incl. the blinds, I think his range here is a smidge wider). As a matter of pure odds, I actually only need 10% equity to call getting 9:1, but since I am out of position and holding a hand that does not play well multiway, I need additional equity to "pay for" the reverse implied odds. I think a 54% overlay is probably enough.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 15.4193 % 15.21% 00.21% { 4h3s }
Hand 2: 26.6685 % 25.59% 01.08% { 77+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 19.3502 % 18.22% 01.13% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 19.0635 % 17.98% 01.08% { 22+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K7o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 5: 19.4985 % 18.44% 01.06% { 22+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K7o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

Snarf · #6 11-20-2005, 12:56 AM

I play lower than 5/10 ...but my answer is that this hand if fine. If you get beat here by a weak hand (say mid pp) - it might serve to slow the guy down since you called him down. You may lose this one, but from the sound of the game you're in - I think you win it more often than others might.

As for the bluffing into a large field...No one here has ever bluffed into four people counting on the fact they'd give you credit for a hand? My favorite bluff this past week is when I bluffed as the shortest stack at a table into a family 7 person pot. Everyone just assumed I had the nuts. Beautiful. (I'm not insane - I don't do it that often. I understand the risks associated, etc...blah...)

nh win or lose

just don't do it all the time.

binions · #7 11-20-2005, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It felt super-fishy, but I actually did nothing on this hand but call one bet four times. Given my reads (see below), I can't decide it it was the right thing to do or just chipspewing.

Loose, retarded table... 35 table VPIP, not a whole lot of trickiness, and ace hi was often bet to the bitter end. CO is 36/10.6/2.6 over 50 hands. He is definitely one of the guys to never quit with ace high, as far as I can tell.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.
Yeah, its thin, but I'm getting 12:1! My trips outs are probably goot, and some of the two pair outs probably goot as well, plus the runner runner outs?

Turn: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.
Most of my outs are dirty, but I have a pair, the board is semi-dry, and even after discounting I still probably have 4 to 4.5 weighted outs (3c, the two black sixes, and 1/2 to 3/4 out each for the black aces) . Raising here seems pointless.

River: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.
I typed "worst... call... ever..." as I did this, but I don't know, am I good 8% of the time? I think so.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Debatable preflop call. Yes you are getting 9:1. But you flop 2 pair, trips, boat, quads or 8 out straight draw less than 10% of the time. If it were 43 suited, it's a definite call. But 43 offsuit is very borderline.

Your flop and turn calls are fine. Your river call is debatable. You can only beat ace high hands and busted draws, but the pot is large.