To Christians (not an attack, but an honest query)

[Darryl_P]

The question of believing in God or not relies on humility to a large extent IMO. I don't mean humility relative to other men but rather to the world and the universe and whatever may or may not lie beyond.

Faith is a resignation. It's admitting that you're not in charge. Our egos make it very difficult to do but if you can get there in a truly deep and all-encompassing way then you will feel a wonderful sense of freedom because you no longer have to shoulder burdens which you are not equipped to handle. You will also realize that these burdens have been shouldered for you all along and that the authority in charge is actually on your side, unlike most human authorities you've come across.

The place you need to look for God is not outside but within yourself, and not because I say so but because you want to. It looks like you are very close to finding Him and it is up to you whether you want to complete the search.

When not-so-intelligent and not-so-articulate people refer to God in ways that feel awkward or wrong, you must excuse their imperfections and not confuse it with God being imperfect. The way you communicate with Him is very personal and with time you will find a way that will be comfortable and harmonious.

This is what I sense anyway and I think PtB has very good antennae as well.

[KeysrSoze]

In my opinion, the Old Testament god is so contrary because the old pantheistic gods of the region were combined when the monotheistic cult took power and co-oped them, like Akhenaten did in Egypt. Explains why one minute he's acting like Loki with his capriciousness and the next moment Thor and smiting people (using Scandinavian gods as examples, because I have little knowledge of the old Hebrew gods like Asherah and such).

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
As one who has left the Christian faith, I am curious to hear some opinions on some of the key issues that caused me to abandon it. Let me state that I have never seen or felt anything that I believe cannot be explained by the laws of physics.

I find the demand of faith without proof unreasonable and unjust. It is unreasonable in the sense that if God is all powerful he could easily supply proof to each person, so to deny us tangible proof of his existence is silly. Secondly, anyone that experiences "miracles" first hand or other supernatural phenomena are given the proof which makes it easier to believe. Therefore, to judge us on faith when some have a decided advantage is unjust.

I know that not all branches of Christianity value faith quite so highly, but once these sores and annoyances festered, I couldn't see myself staying Christian. I also feel that the God character in the bible is too unsophisticated to be believable. Many of his actions are juvenile while he simply says, "you don't understand me because I am better than you (paraphrase)" when his obviously capricious behavior is questioned which is even more juvenile and capricious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't go to church, why?

While churches have given valuable instruction to the multitudes over the years I also believe they are very capable of making mistakes, BIG mistakes which can distort God's words.

For example: What if God was evolving?

What if God created us when he was young, and in his youthful days he was brash, but then as time went on he mellowed out?

Blasphemy!

Outrage!

The "I AM" is eternal!

... some churchfolk would say. (although many would be nicer, I can't resist a dramatic tone) [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I see life as complex and there is no way one human can comprehend all the things in life. Together we discover and learn different things, we 'feed' off each others discoveries (not everyone is an Einstein), and strive to better ourselves ... good.

Now that life is so complex, what about the afterlife? What if that is more complex? What if it involves things that aren't present in life? What if there are dimensions? Evolving God(s)? (just examples, endless possibilities)

So what if, for example, God - the "I AM" is always eternal, existing in a form different to the one we know him as before he created the world? (what if he was just molecules before?)

Now he may again return to molecules (staying with this example) or once created he may stay in that form forever or until he chooses to evolve/de-evolve?

I don't know, and I'm not saying I believe this per se, BUT if one concedes that life is so complex one man is unable to comprehend all of it, then how much moreso would an afterlife be in complexity to understand, and the one who created it?

One can take the view that God chose to reveal what he chose to reveal and that's it.

A possible dialogue with God

Why? = Because I can.

That's unfair = Says who?

Says me! = Who are you?

I'm human. = I made you.

I don't believe you = Your loss.

Prove it = Who are you to make demands?

I'm human = Exactly.

I have a right to know = You have what I choose to give.

(I choose to end the dialogue here as it could go on forever)

Now you may not like God, you may not agree with him, but one thing you have to ask yourself is: Do you know him?

Now don't skip this part, this isn't like life where you meet someone you don't like and you choose not to associcate with him/her which generally has no consequences, because almsot all religions teach you must follow said 'God', rejecting at your own loss.

If you say you know God from what the Bible says then you do the SAME thing some of these preachers/priests in church do! You take what little information you have and treat it as the absolute final authority, and it is this practice which makes people disillusioned and turn away from God - by people professing to know everything about him from the little bit of info revealed and then put words in his mouth.

I myself prefer to keep an open mind, and only work in questions (what if? etc, etc) wheras most people is high ecclesiastical positions work in answers, and that is very bold to say the least.

You have to remember, if the Bible is true, then in 66 books you have a summary of the history of man, and God ... that is not alot, most Tax legislations heavily outweigh the Bible in terms of detailed info!

If God really chose to reveal himself in full and explain everything, it would be the biggest book in the world and nobody would read it because your life isn't long enough.

And even if you did devote your entire life to reading it, you'd more than likely not comprehend many parts (imagine Moses listening to God explain Chemistry) or remember it once you have read it.

Sure, the concepts that would be understood would prove to work and create a frenzy of faith. But eventually an institution would step in (like the Catholic Church) and the book would have to be housed somewhere and all sorts of same problems would arise.

When dealing with maruding barbarians you have to protect such a lofty work in agrarian times (even Rome fell to the Barbarians) and if God only revealed all this info to one man it could possibly send him nuts or kill him from exhaustion, or if it was slowly revealed over an entire lifetime dissent would still be present in those around asking why God is revealing things that aren't applicable to their lives right now etc etc.

Both Judaism and Christianity teach to 'meditate' on the Bible (Judaism - Torah, Christianity - whole bible), it would seem that God would prefer us to keep some things in our heart and minds and the rest that is unanswered to trust him and believe. (faith)

Imagine you are represented to do a task you know you can win (such as play poker against unskilled opponents you have tells on) and imagine you have your wife there.

Which would you prefer:

1) You: "Honey I'm going to go take alot of money off these sucks because I know how they play and they are unskilled. Take Fred, he just got a divorce and steams alot, he used to be rock - that is play tight/premium cards - but since his divorce he is ultra loose - that means playing too many hands - and he always cold calls raises - that means he doesn't worry that the person who raised before him has a better hand than him. Also Fred will sigh through his bottom teeth when the flop doesn't hit him, the flop is the first three community cards on the table, and hit him means he catches a piece of it because of his hole cards - which are the two cards he is holding before the flop is dealt in Hold'em - the form of Poker we are playing. Then there is Jerry ..." (repeat ad nauseum)

Your Tired Wife: "Well obviously you know what you are doing and can do this, go on, I'll see you later"

2) You:"Honey, I can't beat these opponents, I've read all of Sklansky's books and they are very easy opponents, why don't you go get something to eat and I'll see you in a couple of hours"

Your trusting wife: "Ok Honey I believe in you, good luck" (with faith in her eyes)

Which scenario do you like better? The jaded/tired/"I've been bored to death by information overload" wife or the 2nd scenario of the trusting wife who has faith in you based on the little bit of info you have chosen to give her? (and half of what you said in scenario 2 was about what she was going to do while you were away, which is exactly like the Bible which focuses alot on human endevours also)

That look in your wife's eyes in scenario 2 in comparison to scenario 1. If you are God, you created the world, you created humans and in the begining when things went wrong you wanted to wipe them out ... but it was all these little bits of 'faith', the way they trust you in times that makes you happy, that makes you love them enough to want to see the best for them not only in life but also in the afterlife.

In Christianity, God often refers to the followers of Christ as "the bride" IIRC, it would seem God truly loves mankind and his followers and uses this analogy to illustrate the kind of relationship he wants with his followers, that he loves them and they love him.

From what little info we have, does God love us? I only have questions, the answer is faith perhaps?

In closing

Reason is a door which swings both ways. You can be highly skeptical (and this is good), but reason also forces you to think about the big picture, ask yourself how much you know and how much you don't know, and think (with an open mind) ... alot.

Cheers,
A very tired SDM. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Cooker]

I disagree. I think it takes a greater humility to admit to yourself that all evidence points to your life being a relatively meaningless existence created simply by chance for an insignificantly small amount of time with an insignificantly small region of spatial influence. To think that the supreme creater is watching over you and ranking every move you make seems a little arrogant.

My personal view is that there is most likely no God. I think this partly because of the highly disparate starting chances of say a person in America versus a person in Zambia to live a pleasant life. If you can live comfortably with relatively little effort it is easy to see God everywhere. If many of the people you know starve to death, I bet it isn't so easy.

[Cooker]

I agree. I think my underlying assumptions are too orthogonal to those of NotReady and spaminator101 for any of us to make any headway against the other in an argument. Still, I think my views are more reasonable than theirs, because theirs are fiat written by someone else. However, this fiat seems more reasonable if you accept that it comes directly from God. I don't believe this, and I think the evidence for God is almost nonexistence outside the sort of "beauty of the universe stuff". However, when you get right down to it, nature is more cruel than the most vile human ever has been.

[andyfox]

"No human deserves to live. All have sinned. . . . No one is righteous. God could wipe out the entire human race today without compromising His justice or His love."

This is evidently God's attitude. Since no human deserves to live, there is no problem with wiping out whomever God feels like wiping out, either in anger, or in more relaxed moments.

A god that can wipe out the entire human race without violating his concepts of justice or love is not a god worth worshipping. At least not for me. Sounds more like the devil.

[andyfox]

I don't think it's a crock. I don't see how anyone reading the Bible (Old Testament anyway, I am unfamiliar with the New) could come to any other conclusion about the God found there. A mean, vindictive, angry bastard.

[andyfox]

His foreknown knowledge? You mean he knew she would look back? Then why warn them not to?

[spaminator101]

God's mind is a mistery to us and we can not comprehend it
perhaps he said it to make a point to us the others that he know would be efected by every word he said or that was put into the bible

[andyfox]

"God's mind is a mistery to us and we can not comprehend it"

Usually only when he does bad things. Those who worship Him seem to comprehend the things they read as nice pretty clearly.