Should VP$IP be relative to table VP$IP?

MrTrik · #1 07-13-2005, 04:58 PM

People much smarter than me have indicated that VP$IP is usually between 15 and 20 for successful players though some drop below or hang slightly above that range and do well.

I was at a table last night with a table VP$IP of 35-40 on PP .5/1 ring games. And this average included a couple of rocks in the 7-10% range. I was doing well at the table and noticed GT+ showing me at 30% which is much higher than I normally play. I chalked it up to me adjusting to the table. But it is also quite possible that I was on a good run and I really should have been tighter than I was playing.

Sample size was 70 - 100 hands for most at the table which I know is quite low, but not when you consider the musical chairs at low limit ring games on PP.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank You.

Pov · #2 07-13-2005, 05:04 PM

I think this is covered by saying between 15 and 20. Though I don't think 22, maybe even 24 is necessarily too high. It's also not like you can't win with a higher VP$IP, just maybe not as much as you would if you eliminated a few hands. Then again maybe I'm missing out by not loosening up a little extra against really weak opponents. It's difficult to know for sure.

donkeyradish · #3 07-13-2005, 05:51 PM

It should be between 15 and 20 over a prolonged period. 1 session is not a prolonged period and is not worth analyzing. It depends what cards you got.

MrTrik · #4 07-13-2005, 06:59 PM

Thanks for the responses guys. What I'm hearing is that VP$IP is not a useful stat in the short run. The table VP$IP is an indication of looseness of the table, but I should not concern myself with my own percentage on a session since the sample size is too low to tell me much.

My overall VP$IP is 19 over 12K or so hands, and that is a more important indicator of my pre-flop play for the long run.

Thanks again for the insight.

Pov · #5 07-13-2005, 08:12 PM

VP$IP in of itself isn't necessarily useful even in the long run, but it's generally a good indicator. If I folded AA, KK and AKs, but played 22, 33 and 32s I'd end up with the same VP$IP if you see what I mean [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] so it definitely doesn't mean you're playing the right cards at the right time, but if you're in the range you're probably not too far off. I think too many people see they've got a solid VP$IP and PFR and think they're gold at pre-flop play and that isn't necessarily true. Only really understanding what you're doing with each hand can tell you if you're playing correctly pre-flop and what is "correct" changes from table to table and against different players just like you were asking about.

Bottom line, learn the theory! If you understand the theory the stats will follow. Don't try to make it work the other way around. The stats are good because they help you find the holes in your theory that need patching and identify the leaks in others you wish to exploit.

As for short term versus long term, I actually think VP$IP is fairly useful in the short term. After 50-100 hands you'll probably have someone's VP$IP pretty well pegged. It is unlikely to move more than 3-5% either way though obviously there are always exceptions when someone is just on a horrible or an incredible run of cards.