building the pot for other players on the bubble.

[t_perkin]

I asked this once before but didn't really get much of a reponse so I thought I would try again.

What do people think of putting in small raises or limping in to incite other players to stay longer in the hand therefore increasing the possibility of them busting on the bubble or in the money.

i.e. you are trying to pot-build but *not for yourself*, simply to encourage more action by the other players.

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So for example say there was a limper in front of you with a slightly small stack and you are in MP with a mid to large size stack. There is a short stack in the BB (with say 4BB).

Would anyone put in a minraise here with bad cards? The aim being to encourage the BB to push in.
If he does and the limper calls then it is an easy fold. If the limper folds then it is an easy call.
If the BB folds then you have position over a PF limper.
If other players stay in the hand then all the better, the pot is offering odds which will increase the probability of a showdown and hopefully a bust out.

_______

I would be interested to hear any thoughts on this. Please try not to focus on the particular example, I made it up. I am more interested in the concept of pot building for other players.
Does anyone else ever do this? I have experimented a bit with it and had quite a lot of success with it.
Is it too expensive?

Thanks

Tim

[mikewvp]

I think it depends on your goals. It seems like a plausible idea in a satelite, where finishing in "the money" means you qualify to something and everyone gets the same prize. If it is a cash tourney I don't see a purpose in putting money in with the worst of it, but thats just me, I try to get to the final table not just to the money.

[davidross]

If I've got this straight, you want to know if I ever put money into a pot with sub-par hands in order to build a bigger pot for someone else to win??

No I don't ever do that.

[Zinzan]

If you're medium to large stack, seems like you don't need to worry about the bubble players. In fact, bubble time is a great time for you to build your pot with steals.

Sklansky actually recommends you consider intentionally NOT taking out bubble players (if you have a larger stack) for just this reason. The example he gives in TPFTAP is if you're racking up steals during bubble time and a small stack goes all in ahead of you, fold your QQ so you DON'T take the small stack out.

Z.

[donny5k]

Sure you want to keep making money off of the passive play on the bubble, but I think folding QQ is a little too crazy and too big of a missed opportunity in itself, JJ/AQ I might understand.

[Zinzan]

Probably depends on the potential winnings. If you've got, say, $35,000, and this guy goes all in for $2,000 and it's folded to you in BB, maybe it's not worth taking him on or out, particularly if there are a three or four other players on your table that are on the bubble.

Z.

[donny5k]

It's an interesting concept but the blinds would have to be really small for me to fold there.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It's an interesting idea, but I believe there are two flaws.

As has already been pointed out, if you've got a big stack, then you don't necessarily want to knock out players, as you can use bubble time to accumulate chips from those in survival mode.

Second, if you're the one with the short or "in-danger" stack, you do want to see others go broke, and your method will achieve this, but probably at too high of a cost to you. I can't prove it, but it sures sounds too expensive to me, to build a pot unless you think you have a better than average chance of winning it.

later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[t_perkin]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I think it is probably my adversity to bubbling that makes this an appealing play to me. And I am probably giving up quite a lot of $EV when I have a mid size stack. Something for me to think on for the future.

Maybe the other reason to make the play is because the bubble last so bloody long with hand for hand play, especially at Party [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


Tim

[ilya]

Sklansky has a very specific situation in mind when he recommends folding QQ to a small stack all-in. Specifically, he's talking about being 5-handed with 2 tables left and having the biggest stack at your table, but not at all the biggest stack in the tournament. Since busting the short stack will result in the tables being consolidated, you fold QQ because you will lose too much by becoming a medium stack and having to drop your agression.
Naturally, if you had a substantial overall chip lead, you would call.
I think Sklansky's advice is good given the context.