JJ preflop : The Final Discussion (for the FAQ)

[PrayingMantis]

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I sure hope Lori was taking the piss in that tough JJ thread.


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I don't exactly know what you mean by "taking the piss" (as English isn't actually my first language, etc, etc), but if you mean she was joking, so she wasn't. Lori is an excellent SNG player, despite the fact she rarely posts anything related to this on 2+2, and the fact that some people don't like her. She also has an amazing poker-mind, IMO. I've also exchanged some PMs with her regarding the JJ hand, and she made some very deep and impressive analysis of the hand, and of $EV of several different scenarios and types of opponents. It's not that she claims mini-raising is the only move, but she felt people here are neglecting some very valid options, and are WAY too sure of their thinking.

I don't want to defend her attitude toward this board, because she clearly has some sirious issues with how people write and express their thoughts. But as time passes, I tend to agree with her general opinion, about posters who seem to be much too decisive about their advice, while it's often pretty far from 100% correct. Also, I see more and more simply bad advice, and what's more: people who are just unwilling to accept the fact they are wrong, even if they are complete newbies. This could be very frustrating for more expirienced posters (not only Lori), who get tired, at some point, of all this stubborness.

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Either way, it strikes me as far too specific a situation to be useful for an FAQ.

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This is possible, although I believe it's a great example of how complicate it is to play JJ in certain circumstances, perhaps more than most other hands. That's why I think it is appropriate for a "JJ FAQ". And also, good discussions about specific hands are a good way to introduce people to some of the fundamentals of SNG play at large.

[stupidsucker]

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It's not that she claims mini-raising is the only move, but she felt people here are neglecting some very valid options, and are WAY too sure of their thinking.


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tend to agree with her general opinion, about posters who seem to be much too decisive about their advice, while it's often pretty far from 100% correct

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I can relate to these things emphatically. I try to objectivly look at situations and try to encourage discussions passed the usual thought process. Some people get very stern on their way is ALWAYS 100% correct and there will be no backing down. This limits disscussion, and stunts the learning process.

This thread is becoming something its not supposed to be... so im going to stop right here.

[fnurt]

I thought the advice was intriguing and well worth consideration. I was expressing hope that the delivery was tongue-in-cheek.

[PrayingMantis]

Yes, I agree with you about the advice. But I suspect the delivery was tongue-in-cheek only in some narrow sense. She was real angry at the forum, and was pretty sure, even before posting her advice, that people will not appriciate it. Her attitude didn't help her with that, and nobody realy understood her "joke", i.e, "pretending" to be a know-it-all. It's like image-play in poker. Everybody thought she's a prick, while her point was that everybody else is a prick, except maybe her...

It was a fun thread. It's a pity Lory has chosen not to post here. Maybe she'll change her mind some day.

[Che]

Blinds 15/30. Two or three limpers then some goofball pushes all-in for 879 chips or something ridiculous like that.

I call with JJ here as fast as possible (assuming that I'm not worried about any of the reasonable players at the table) since this is almost always a middle pair, Ax, KT, or just a straight bluff. I think I've seen this done with a hand that beat JJ once (QQ) versus tons of times that JJ was either ahead or miles ahead.

So combining my answers to the following two questions...

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When would you call an all in?

Does it play differently at higher buyins than low buyins?

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At low buyins, call preflop all-ins that are ridiculous overbets of the pot anytime you have JJ. (In fact, TT will do - maybe even 99.)

Of course, some may disagree with this assessment. Also, it may be too specific a situation to include in the FAQ, but I wanted to open it up for discussion.

BTW- Where can I find the FAQ?

Che

[ethan]

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BTW- Where can I find the FAQ?

Che

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FAQ

[t_perkin]

Yes I think you are probably right, too specific.

I will move it to my "interesting specific hands section" which will be in the next version of the FAQ hopefully.
Kind of like the hand quiz sections of the S+M books only without the nice clean cut answers [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tim

[Eder]

Thanks for the links PM...lot of good advice in them....played a SnG after reading them...raised JJ from MP blinds at level 5 ...folded to a reraise(my normal response has been to push)...3 hands later I'm looking at JJ again on the button...folded to an all-in...went on to win...

I think playing JJ weaker saved me from busting here...thanks again

[eastbay]

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Hehe I have got both of those posts lined up already [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Can I humbly request that you not include that entire thread in a FAQ?

There's too much line noise for that to be good FAQ, material, and I happened to have had a negative opinion of some behavior in that thread, which ended up watering it all down.

A summary of the various viewpoints is a good idea - the full thread is not good FAQ material.

eastbay

[t_perkin]

I was not intending to put whole threads in, just links and summaries.

Tim