Early raises in Omaha

[Big Dave D]

I've been playing Omaha 8b for a while now, in some of the loose and woolly games online. It has struck me, that there are very few hands you would raise preflop with UTG (AAbabybaby, A2-3KK) and only slightly more you would raise in middle position, especially if only one or no players had called before you. Also, beside isolating hands (AAbaby, A2 baby K), you would probably want to call a loose raise more than reraise. Am I on the right lines here? It all seems so damn passive!

Thanks in advance

Dave

[Ray Zee]

you raise but less for hand value than other reasons. as hands run close before the flop and position is more important. after the flop you get real aggressive.
as the game gets tighter or shorthanded you raise alot more.

[Big Dave D]

Ray, its not clear to me whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me :-) Would you agree with what I am saying in that with the exception of the hands I have detailed, in early/midd position you are playing quite passively with your strong hands?

Thanks

Dave

[crockpot]

generally speaking, the gains from raising preflop - small +EV in value - are not worth the costs - knocking out lesser hands and poor draws that may call you all the way. also, by making the pot bigger, you are making it a smaller mistake for people to chase you postflop, which is an important concept in omaha when someone can virtually always draw to beat you.

edit: in tighter or shorthanded games, raising is important. however, you're not really raising because your hand is that much better than the opponents', but to outplay the opposition later on.

[Iceman]

"I've been playing Omaha 8b for a while now, in some of the loose and woolly games online. It has struck me, that there are very few hands you would raise preflop with UTG (AAbabybaby, A2-3KK) and only slightly more you would raise in middle position, especially if only one or no players had called before you. Also, beside isolating hands (AAbaby, A2 baby K), you would probably want to call a loose raise more than reraise. Am I on the right lines here? It all seems so damn passive!"

Are you talking limit or PL?

In limit Omaha-8, if the game is loose, it often pays to raise preflop. While almost all hands run close in value preflop in two or three-way situations, when your opponents are coming in to 6-10 way fields with all kinds of trash, then hands that do make the nuts go way up in value. Also, when you have A2 and flop a low or low draw, you want more players calling postflop chasing for the high side. If you have a premium hand, you should often reraise an early raise if there are several players trapped in the middle. If a reraise would narrow the field considerably, then it pays to just call - you'd rather face more players for fewer bets, since your hand is worth much more in a multiway field and you'll make far more from their postflop errors than you would from marginally increasing your shot at the existing pot. As for blind steals, if you're in an Omaha-8 game where people actually steal the blinds, then find another game.

In pot-limit, if the money is deep, I would rarely raise. Even premium hands gain little by raising the stakes preflop, preflop raises in PLO-8 don't really give you extra bluff equity on the flop like preflop raises in NL/PL holdem, and preflop raising knocks out weaker, less connected hands that might give you a lot of action later. It massively raises your variance, and reduces the skill factor postflop - loose calls become much less of (or not even) an error when the starting pot on the flop is significant compared to the stacks. Whether the money is deep or moderate, raising when first in only sets you up to be outplayed on the flop by someone in better position. If your raise would allow another player to reraise all-in, keep in mind that any hand without AA is an underdog to all but the worst AA hands when all-in preflop, so there's no reason to let a player with AA get all-in when instead you could have him in a difficult situation when he misses the flop (which will be most of the time).

[Big Dave D]

Sorry Ice, I was talking limit.

Isn't the problem with raising early in limit that although people may call with complete junk, 2 bets makes them only play their "better" hands. Or worse you may get a maniac raise and find yourself isolated by a hand that is good headsup against yours, as opposed to a juicy field. I think it may be a game composition thing. In the games on Party, 3-6 to the flop is common, but an early raise "may" cut that down more to the three side, and its rare for a 3 bet to get much action. So with that composition, I think we are in agreement that passive first in or versus one early raiser is best.

Interestingly, in plo8b I do like to make a lot of sweetener raises against poor opposition, but of course never out of position. This isnt so much anything other than raising the stakes of the game for the hands that you view as being favourable. In a 1/2 blind game, if every hand that is strong is played at a 6 blind level, but all the rest played at 2, then this alone can be a huge edge. But only against weak loose opposition. But if you have strong opposition, why the hell are you playing plo8b [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

cheers

dd