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  #1  
Old 11-03-2005, 03:20 PM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

With the help of this forum I have gone from being a 8-10BB/100 nut peddler to a more aggressive 16BB/100 player (small sample size, but over a few thousand hands so not too bad). I have been thinking a lot about how to increase my winning and get to the next level and I think I have some answers that the better players already know, but haven't been cleanly articulated on the board (at least not for a while). I don't know quite how cleanly this will come across, but I will do my best.

I think optimal play requires that you make bets and raises with marginal hands in order to get action on yourvery strong hands. This is similar to Doyle Brunson's style of NLHE as described in SS except PLO8 affords many situations where what some people consider a sucker play is really neutral EV, so you are often even money or a slight favorite on these action generating plays (which is why I won't refer to them as semi-bluffs). Let me illustrate with 2 examples: I was in a hand yesterday where I flopped middle pair and a nut low draw with A267 from the BB. The flop checks around and the turn brings me the nut low. I then checkraise the button who made a bet of twice the minimum and a player in between us folds while the button just calls. The river is a blank and I bet out the pot and the button calls and turns up the nut high hand to split the pot. He then berates me for my stupid play suggesting I should have tried to cut up the other player. Sure, this makes money, but what about the times button has only a nut low and my sixes are good for high? I win a lot more when I quarter him and pot raise than when I let another moron tag along so we can split 3-5 BBs. Also, how could I expect him to have a nut straight when he didn't bet the flop in position with a big wrap draw? But this clearly neutral EV play made me a moron to the button for the rest of the night and he paid off my very strong hands while letting me know what a fool I was and how he was going to break me.

The next hand also lead to me being called all kinds of fish and sucker. I am the button and raise with AA25ss. Only the BB calls. The flop is J73 with one of my suit. The BB check raises me then calls my all in bet for a small amount more and has JT97. The turn and the river are both kings and I scoop. I get called a suckout artist, but look at this:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1318867
pokenum -o8 ac 2c as 5h - js td 9h 7h -- jc 7d 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 3s Jc 7d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ac 2c 5h 255 255 565 0 610 0 0 0.566
Js Td 9h 7h 147 565 255 0 0 0 0 0.434

Thats right, I was the money favorite. I basically moved in on the checkraise praying for him to only have 2 pair or a straight draw instead of a set and it paid off. I stack this guy 2 times with top set vs 2 pair later that night, because he thinks I am some kind of total moron (granted he might have stacked off on those plays as well, but he was a bit of a nut peddler with other players). This is another important point, most people have no idea which hand is a favorite given 2 hands face up and a flop. After playing with 2 dimes for a while I feel like I can do a decent job of telling this, so I often get in with a favorite and generate action, because my opponents can't tell that I was favorite or nearly a coinflip when the money went in.

I think the tougher the players are the more likely you should be to make semi-bluff bets and raises in PLO8 all the way down to probably being a significant dog (although nowhere near what Doyle Brunson suggests since I don't think your fold equity is as good in a high low split game as it is in the NLHE of his day).

Of course, you are going to pay off the occasional monster, but if you pick your spots well I think you can avoid some of this. I also think this aggressive play will steal many pots where the hands are fairly close together, since many people won't stand much action on marginal holdings.
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2005, 05:17 PM
Wintermute Wintermute is offline
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Posts: 612
Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

Good post, I agree with everything you wrote. When you have a player berating you for playing too aggressively and costing "extra rake" or pushing the third player out of the pot, that's a very good sign. This player sucks, and he'll be a lucrative person to have at the table with you.

I forget--were you Vader from the other night? I think you were, but not sure. Anyway, I thought that guy (you, probably) played very well in that session. I remember thinking your game could easily win at much higher levels, although it sounded like wifey might protest.
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2005, 05:27 PM
Drizztdj Drizztdj is offline
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Location: Twin Cities
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Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

Two pair is GOLD!!

Excellent play on your part man.
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  #4  
Old 11-03-2005, 06:03 PM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

I was vader. I think I should be able to get to the 100 level soon and should play more at the $50. Right now I am a bit too conservative with my BR, because I am basically in the situation where if I lose it, it will be a while before my wife lets me play again (even though I have taken out more than 40 times what I originally put in for family related stuff). She will just remember that I lost $1000 not that I started with $50 and took out over $2000. If I lose my BR I become a losing player to her with no hope to make money in the future. And even when I can play again it will probably be for about $50. I also don't play as much as I would like.
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2005, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong:

1. You were one card away from the nut low. If your ace or deuce got counterfeited, you had a third low card helping you. So, you were probably freerolling for half the pot plus some, considering he had NO low whatsoever.

2. He thought he was good with two pair for high? I mean, in this case he was, but it's not a very good way to play. He had, what, ten outs to improve (J, 7, 8)? This isn't something like AA vs. AK in hold 'em.

Yeah, you were right and he was a jerk. As far as I'm concerned, players can whine all they like -- they don't realize that it's part of the game, and it tells me they have the mentality of a ten-year-old.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2005, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

[ QUOTE ]
Blah blah heads up with AA25ss I flop a flush draw + AA overpair + nut low draw with counterfeit protection. I get all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for being rude, but this is [censored] obvious that you want to get all in here. I wish there wasn't a profanity filter so I could properly express the [censored] obviousness of it. God damn.

I'm struggling to figure out what the [censored] you're talking about here. So far I get:

1. Play aggressively in marginal situations cause it good for your image
2. Some moron called me moron but HE's the moron.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2005, 05:11 AM
Jorge10 Jorge10 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 60
Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blah blah heads up with AA25ss I flop a flush draw + AA overpair + nut low draw with counterfeit protection. I get all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for being rude, but this is [censored] obvious that you want to get all in here. I wish there wasn't a profanity filter so I could properly express the [censored] obviousness of it. God damn.

I'm struggling to figure out what the [censored] you're talking about here. So far I get:

1. Play aggressively in marginal situations cause it good for your image
2. Some moron called me moron but HE's the moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!

I agree with everything you just typed.

Sounds like he is angry people keep calling him moron.

Just play your game who cares what others tell you.

Also yes high low is about pushing small edges.

Over 16 win rate huh? You havent experienced a downswing. Dont you find it odd how the strongest NL holdem players on these forums usually hang around 8-14 bb?

Usually unless your opponents are extremely fishy, which is true at the 50 and most 100 tables, you can probably get past 16. Once you get into the 200 tables and beyond you wont get past a 16BB win rate long term.

Also some of your plays are very very dependent on a lot of people following you all in. While this is nice at the 50 and 25 tables, 4 people wont go all in with you at the 100 tables. Also the A/A/2 play is standard nothing crazy as it was stated before.
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2005, 11:47 AM
boscoboy boscoboy is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 64
Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

[ QUOTE ]
I was vader. I think I should be able to get to the 100 level soon and should play more at the $50. Right now I am a bit too conservative with my BR, because I am basically in the situation where if I lose it, it will be a while before my wife lets me play again (even though I have taken out more than 40 times what I originally put in for family related stuff). She will just remember that I lost $1000 not that I started with $50 and took out over $2000. If I lose my BR I become a losing player to her with no hope to make money in the future. And even when I can play again it will probably be for about $50. I also don't play as much as I would like.

[/ QUOTE ]


you need to get a separate checking account just for poker - my wife has no idea how much i have wrapped up in netteller,poker sites and personal checking - she just knows she gets a bi-weekly poker spouse paycheck
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2005, 12:02 PM
Cooker Cooker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 159
Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blah blah heads up with AA25ss I flop a flush draw + AA overpair + nut low draw with counterfeit protection. I get all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for being rude, but this is [censored] obvious that you want to get all in here. I wish there wasn't a profanity filter so I could properly express the [censored] obviousness of it. God damn.

I'm struggling to figure out what the [censored] you're talking about here. So far I get:

1. Play aggressively in marginal situations cause it good for your image
2. Some moron called me moron but HE's the moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are forgiven. Your quoting abilities are lacking as I didn't have a flush draw in that hand. I think this is an obvious hand as well. The point of the post is that many players that are fairly conservative nut peddler types at the low levels can't even recognize the favorite allowing for "action" plays where you are a favorite.
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2005, 03:40 PM
emptyshell emptyshell is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 33
Default Re: Some thoughts on optimal PLO8 play

Jesus. It's men like you that are fcking over all of us. Take control of your bitches guys.

Thank god this site isn't in Swedish.
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