$50 PLO8 hand

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing PLO8 a little over a month ago at the $10 and $20 tables, so im just begining at this game, and went to play a little at the 50s.


- 2 sitting in seat 1 with $27.74
- 3 sitting in seat 2 with $47.75
- 4 sitting in seat 3 with $84.70
- ubermensch2k sitting in seat 6 with $24.25
** Dealing card to ubermensch2k: 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 called - $0.50
2 called - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v called - $0.50
w folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
x folded
y called - $0.50
z checked
** Dealing the flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
y checked
z checked
1 checked
2 bet - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
y folded
z folded
1 folded
** Dealing the turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 bet - $1.00
3 called - $1.00
4 raised - $4.00
ubermensch2k raised - $7.00
2 called - $7.00
3 called - $7.00
4 called - $7.00
** Dealing the river: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 checked
3 checked
4 bet - $34.00
ubermensch2k went all-in - $16.25
2 folded
3 folded


Preflop: Is this a raise? With that many limpers and A2s i think i should have raised at least to build the pot a little.
Flop: i should have raised here, right?, i dont know what was i thinking.
Turn: bet the pot?

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take my comments with a grain of salt, as I am just learning this game as well.

Pot raise that flop. You have a 2nd nut but vulnerable high, but you have a low backup. It also changes the dynamics of the hand, and will likely make another naked A2 think twice about sticking around. If your high holds up then you want the other lows to chase, but your high is vulnerable. Raising it now may let you avoid getting quartered for the low if your high gets cracked.

Shove it all in on that turn.

Curse that river, as you likely got sucked out on.

Hey, no one said this was easy.

[jthegreat]

Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

And calling the flop is madness imo. The odds are good you have the best hand, and you should be raising it up. The 80% of the time a non flush card comes on the turn, you want a big pot so you can get decent money in. Calling the flop won't achieve that, nor will it make you money from donkeys on draws.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
He could very well raise pre-flop, since he has position, and if he raises pre-flop some of the time.

I subscribe to the theory of either raising with a variety of hands, or not raising at all pre-flop (there are obvious exceptions to this).

I play all of the time against extremely transparent players who will ONLY raise pre-flop with AAxx or A2xx. This is the worst strategy imaginable, IMO. I know exactly what they have, and can outplay them easily. In LO8 it is almost suicidal to play like this.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a pre-flop raise here, as long as he does it with more hands than AAxx and A2xx. He definitely has positional advantage.

I agree with what you wrote, but I'd rather raise A34x or AKJ9 in this spot than A26T. It's total trash except on a small percentage of flops and will usually end in heartache and pain. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

How much do you propose raising here? Pot? And how do follow up on what will likely be a totally missed flop? On a two low flop? The trouble with raising low equity, low playability hands like this is that unless you follow through with bluffs, you become transparent post flop when you do hit.

[FeliciaLee]

Yeah. Agreed. That is one of the many reasons I love PLO8 so much.

I personally wouldn't raise this hand unless it was passed to me in LP. In cash games that is something I employ, whereas I usually don't raise other hands. I'm definitely more of a post-flop PLO8 player than pre. Might be coming from my LO8 beginnings.

I had forgotten how much I love PLO8. In the past two months I've been out of the USA most of the time, taking cruises out of San Diego (down to Mexico).

I had time to get my head straight following chemo. I was trying to clear things up before playing real stakes poker again.

In some ways I succeeded, in others I failed. Definitely my abilities are not that of pre-chemo. I am now finally able to admit that. But they are coming back. I already feel more focused than I did just last week.

Okay, so I have hijacked this thread for my own purpose, lol. I meant to make a post on these two forums to update everyone, but I just never got around to it. I will try to do that today.

At any rate, I tried to get a PLO8 game going on the CardPlayer cruise, but no one would go for it, not even for tiny blinds like .50/1 (they had brown .50 chips). I guess they figured that if they busted, they didn't have access to more money, like a land-casino. Maybe they thought it I was suggesting the game, I must know how to play, lol.

Last night was my first foray back into PLO8 (online, of course). I'd utterly forgotten how much I enjoy the game.

And yes, I am a self-confessed nutpeddler [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you propose raising here? Pot? And how do follow up on what will likely be a totally missed flop? On a two low flop? The trouble with raising low equity, low playability hands like this is that unless you follow through with bluffs, you become transparent post flop when you do hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's say that the other hands really are as icky as the sim. Theoretically we should raise the pot (in position, knowing likely everyone will call the full raise).

And then, Phil's first scenario: A missed flop...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1413317
pokenum -o8 ad 2d 6s th - 2h 4h js qs - ah 3h qd ks - 3d 4s 7h 8c - 9c tc jd qh - ts jh qc kc -- td 7c kh
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 300 enumerated boards containing 7c Td Kh
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Ad 2d Th 17 17 283 0 85 36 0 0.188
Qs Js 4h 2h 0 0 216 84 24 53 0 0.118
Ks Qd Ah 3h 23 26 273 1 24 53 0 0.122
4s 8c 3d 7h 35 44 256 0 4 117 0 0.138
Tc 9c Jd Qh 3 37 179 84 0 0 0 0.145
Ts Kc Qc Jh 34 92 124 84 0 0 0 0.288

Once again, surprise, surprise. We're really not in that bad of shape. And lucky us, we have position over the guy with the wrap. Having position here would be a big advantage, imo.

So I have to assume that this guy is going to lead right out. I mean, he would be a fool not to, and although there are several hundred fools at the PLO850 tables, most aren't this foolish. They usually lead right out when they hit.

So where does that lead us? Well, I'm assuming he will lead out, and everyone else will drop. With this kind of expected value do we call? Do we call a half sized bet? Pot sized? If we absolutely know we will be HU? If we know that no further bets can be made and we will receive two free cards (assuming one player is all-in)? If we assume we will fold on fourth if we don't improve?

What say the mob?

[DOMIT]

Are you asking if we'd continue with this same hand given the flop of :

7c Td Kh

??

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think that an A2s has some kind of equity edge against 5 preflop callers when you're in position? How weak-tight do you play? He should pot this or at least put in a big raise.

[ QUOTE ]
And calling the flop is madness imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.

<font color="blue">A2s has an equity edge in LP against 5 callers</font>

Not this A2s. It's getting a playable flop with positive expectation less than 10% of the time (and then just barely). And five callers are bad for your likely equity, not good. You'll just about never make a decent high with this hand and you're likely splitting for low if it does come (or getting counterfeited). I believe you're directly losing money by raising this preflop.

<font color="blue">How weak-tight do you play?</font>

Did you read my reply to Felicia above? I'd rather raise A34x or KQJ9 in position than this particular hand.

<font color="blue">I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.</font>

This is a unique hand, not a generic 'vulnerable nuts' hand. It's very different to say, top set on a two flush, two straight board. You have a hand that's likely the best, and is still likely to be good on the turn. You have to start jamming the flop and making money from inferior hands at this point. There are a huge number of inferior hands that will pay you off now but won't later if scare cards come or their draw suddenly doesn't look as good with one card to come. And you have to build a big enough pot so you can all in on the turn if you hand is still good.

This is NOT a hand to wait and see if the turn is a safe card. Your equity is unlikely to increase past its current point with another card. This is very different to say top set on two low, two flush board where a safe turn card will increase your equity greatly.