well-played or just overplayed?

zombies kill · #1 09-10-2005, 04:31 PM

I've been trying to pay close attention to my heads up/ small pot play... it something i need to work on. Does anyone not like completing the SB against someone i feel like i have an edge over?

BB's stats were like 24/6, but really seemed much crazier, maybe like he was on tilt. And he seemed like he likes to go to war over the blinds.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

thanks guys

Jeff V · #2 09-10-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do this? W/ 53s out of position? Hoping your 5 high holds up? Especially against someone who seems crazy. I mean if your gonna play it's a clear raise IMO.
Jeff

ggbman · #3 09-10-2005, 04:39 PM

Horribly overplayed. The turn bet is worse than the flop 3 bet, which is [censored] bad btw. If your going to post hands like this, offer some insight into your thoughts here so we can underdtand what you were trying to accomplish.

zombies kill · #4 09-10-2005, 05:03 PM

well, like i said, recently BB seemed to be tilting... and much more aggressive than his normal self. he seemed to be getting hyper aggressive heads up after the flop, fighting real hard over blinds or 3way pots. so more than anything this hand was guided by his recent bizarre play.

preflop- i figured i would complete the SB getting 3-1, and if he raised, i would just fold, having dropped an extra $10 on the hand. i figured he would raise any pair, ace, or big cards, and that if i hit a flop well i can get paid off nicely. does anyone hate this idea?

flop- my first thought is that im leading. a lot of times in the 20 games i see people go to war for the blinds on an ace high flop with no part of it... sort of using the ace as a scare card. so i bet, mostly expecting a raise. so when he raised, i 3bet, still thinking i was ahead.

turn- i actually liked this card, thinking that between the ace and the king, maybe he would actually be scared. i was still leaning towards him having a random hand, at best a 3 with a better kicker than mine. im hoping he folds to this turn bet, but dont mind a call that much. instead he raises, and now i am worried, thinking i may have screwed up bad. but when thinking about his play over the last half hour, i think that i have to call down here.

river- im calling no matter what, thinking im good around half the time.

without his recent crazy play, i dont touch any part of this hand normally. does this make more sense now... or is it still that bad?

tongni · #5 09-10-2005, 05:13 PM

Check-call the turn. It's doubtful he's taking a free card here. Decide on the river to lead out or check call. I think you should fold preflop because playing out of position with an extremely weak hand vs a player that is so unpredictable that you can't get away from any piece of the board is big, big trouble.

leon · #6 09-10-2005, 06:54 PM

You have zero evidence other than his lack of a PFR that he doesn't like this board more than you. In fact, all evidence otherwise seems to be that he has you badly crushed.

flop- "so i bet, mostly expecting a raise. so when he raised, i 3bet, still thinking i was ahead."

"turn- i actually liked this card, thinking that between the ace and the king, maybe he would actually be scared. i was still leaning towards him having a random hand, at best a 3 with a better kicker than mine. im hoping he folds to this turn bet, but dont mind a call that much. instead he raises, and now i am worried, thinking i may have screwed up bad. but when thinking about his play over the last half hour, i think that i have to call down here."

Ahh, optimism springs eternal. And then:

"river- im calling no matter what, thinking im good around half the time."

I think this is horribly overplayed. If you're so intent on seeing the river, just call down, and if you're so intent on folding him out the keeping jamming.

Leon

zombies kill · #7 09-10-2005, 07:21 PM

he showed down Qd Jd... no pair no draw. i was thinking more like J5 or Q4 throughout the hand

CardSharpCook · #8 09-10-2005, 09:42 PM

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either you're slightly ahead, or way behind. You're not going to bluff him out if he has a better hand than you, so betting the turn makes no sense to me. 3-betting the flop actually makes a great deal of sense, but when he 4-bets, that's when I go into my shell and proceed to check/call the rest of the way. Also, I like your reasoning about just calling PF. You can be relatively certain that a) you're not gonna bluff him out of any pot and b) he won't fold PF. No need to raise here. So yeah, my only problem is with the turn.

zombies kill · #9 09-11-2005, 02:37 PM

i was thinking he had 3-7 outs... probably 6 or 7 (which he did). hoping he wouldnt want to draw so thin against so much aggression, i bet the turn when the K hit after 3betting the flop, hoping he would fold his outs and possibly a better hand like T3 or 83 or something.

i dont do this often... maybe 1/4 of the time. im not sure how much i like doing it though. it works a lot in the games i play, but its kind of sketch. i dont know... maybe its a case of FPS.

CardSharpCook · #10 09-11-2005, 02:56 PM

The point I am trying to make is that with an opponent like this, especially in a blind war, you are not going to get him to fold a pair. So the question becomes, "how do you balance the risk of him having a better with the reward of getting the most value out of your winning hand." If you really want him to fold outs, then the check/raise on the turn is in order - he is not giong to fold to what looks like a bluff on the turn (and basically it is a bluff). He knows that you know that he plans to bet the turn. So check raise. Or check call the rest of the way. But the line you took seems to accomplish none of the desired goals - he doesn't fold his draw, he makes you pay the most to see if your hand is good. However, it does get good value for hand...

<shrug>

CSC