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  #1  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:46 AM
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Default last one tonight, completely lost

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (10.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (13.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 15.20 BB
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

I would have bet the turn, and most likely folded to a 3 bet.
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  #3  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:55 AM
WordWhiz WordWhiz is offline
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Location: Tucson, AZ
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

I'd bet the flop while I was at it. You're the PFR against 6 random hands. You have two overs and a gutshot, 3 of which give you the nuts. No one knows you whiffed. Pokerstove gives you a decent pot equity edge over 6 random hands. Also, you want a hand like a single spade to fold, so if the turn is A-Q of spades, you don't get outdrawn on the river.
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  #4  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:58 AM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove gives you a decent pot equity edge over 6 random hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
sucks that all those 6 "random" hands don't call your bets here, huh?
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:44 AM
AussieBattler AussieBattler is offline
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

I hate hands like this and an wondering if the reason there has been so few replies is that everyone is also lost about how to play them too.

Reads would be really useful here but alas all too frequenty there are none and its a huge put after the flop and that board is full of draws and none of them are going anywhere.

Im going to put my thoughts out there....not because I am sure I am right but because I want to learn something (by typing this post I already have gone through a useful thought process but I want more [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). So please, correct, critique and let us know your thoughts.

Here goes. The reasons I (and maybe the OP and others as well) find this sort of hand tough to play are:
1) We are getting ridiculous odds on the flop by the time it is to us (approx 20:1). So I have to call given my gutshot...even if its for metagame just so I dont appear to be a total tightie on what appears to be a great table (look at all those cold calls preflop).
2) However with this many players still in the pot Im almost certain that it will have probably hit somebody somewhat. Bad players dont fold if they made even 2nd and sometimes 3rd pair (regardless if the pots sizes means their play coincides with the correct play or not). Therefore to bet out with AK is not correct.
2) So in the hand in question we check the turn and someone else apart from flop bettor now bets and ignoring flush and boat and redraws we have 3 clean outs to the nuts. So we have odds to call, no?
3) Then we hit a TPTK on the turn. Not great because we may well be dead in the water to a made st8 or flush and even crappy 2 pairs. Are we good enough here often enough? FWIW In this particular hand the pot isnt THAT huge so I like to think I would probably bet/fold or just fold my TPTK when a different player to the post flop raiser bets. Its different in the "heat of battle" at low limit tables though so is a flat call down all that bad?
4) Lets consider what to do if it had been a K of different suit. I probably bet this turn knowing I have to be really careful as noone except a crazy is going to go nuts here without the goods. And yes, there is still a crazy amount of cards that help our opponents here.
4) In this and similiar hands I think that THAT THE CRUCIAL PLACE IS THE TURN. If I call the turn Im probably going to have to call a single river bet (but yes, if players go nuts I can find a fold if its 2 or more to me)

So please let us know what you think...and if you find yourself stuck in situations like this then at least say so so that I know Im not alone.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:59 AM
Augster Augster is offline
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

Grunch.

Uffda, tough one.

Sadly, I bet the flop, even into 200 people. I am going to hope the flush draw raises behind me and knocks some people out. Some weak draws may fold also.

I then bet out on the turn.

Hand would play differently with a flop bet.

The way you played it, I'm totally lost also. But generally speaking, with 4 people cold-calling, someone will have the flush. A fold on the turn with TPTK and a nut gutshot straight draw, would not be all bad.

But big pots etc. etc., I would most likely pay 1 to see the river, then 1 again on the river just to find out what two the button was cold-calling with as you did. Make a note of what he CC's with, and that he doesn't push the flush draw on the flop.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

A flop bet would be a waste here as anyone you want to fold won't because the pot is huge. You have to call one bet back. At the very least you have 3 outs to the gutshot.

The turn is tricky. I'd take a wait-and-see approach. Check, and see what happens behind you. If it's 2 back to me I fold. But it's only 1 so I call. I considered raising but I don't see what purpose this would serve since it will likely drive out only the hands you beat.

I check call the river.

So I play it the same as you.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

If it was me, I'd prolly bet the flop, you've got pleanty of odds, plus overcards and gutshot.
The turn comes, I prolly just check and let it go if it's two back. Hate to fold in a big pot, but sounds like you've got a table full of fish here, so why give anything away. Wait for a better opportunity, which should come soon.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

I'd bet the flop. I think you're in at least as good a position as a flush draw, and have 10 outs to beat top pair. On the turn, I'll probably bet/fold. A raise is likely to be a flush. And check the river, probably call one bet but I think I fold rather than overcall.

I have lots of problems with this kind of hand too. Can someone more experienced go over this in detail?
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:29 AM
rnmike17602 rnmike17602 is offline
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Default Re: last one tonight, completely lost

I think you're stuck in that pot even though you don't like it. Flop has many outs, Turn is TPTK, River improves you to highest two pair with top kicker. IMO the pot is large enough that folding any of those for one bet would be a mistake.

On the other hand, I doubt you could call any bet a value bet on that board. Maybe marginally if they truly were 6 random hands, which they aren't.

I think I'd try to analyze the table. If it's a very passive and predictable table, I'd bet every street and fold to a raise (in order to save bets with an early fold). If it's a semi-aggressive table, I'd check/call it all the way (in order to see a cheap showdown).
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