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#11
08-05-2005, 06:29 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
with this WSOP guy he will surely think many of his pair hands are good here and play them that fast against you on this two tone board.
the lines to take that may gain fold equity are a) cap the flop and bet the turn when checked to. or b) call the 3 bet and raise the turn. this will very likely get him to release his pair hands and may earn you a free showdown if you choose to take it (which is dont think is a good idea...). further, i dont think he'll 3 bet you here w/o at least a set, and unless he's 3betting the lower pairs there too its a set of jacks...and i think HU he'd slow down on the flop with a hand that big. i just dont like capping the flop AND NOT betting the turn. -Barron 
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#12
08-05-2005, 06:45 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
[ QUOTE ]
I think a much better line here is to just call his flop 3 bet and then to raise him on the turn. Now he might actually fold something. [/ QUOTE ] It's short handed. He's not (I assume, I don't know him and hell he might be a fold-donk) folding anything that the pair of 5's will beat no matter how you pressure him. Given that, I like getting to the showdown cheaper than with the turn raise. Getting a little more action on the flop where you're almost always a favorite is better than maybe trapping yourself for 3 bets on the turn when you can't fold. I think a lot of people will see this as giving up on the turn, but inducing the river bluff is something that has some value as well, and needs to be considered. ~D
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#13
08-05-2005, 06:52 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people will see this as giving up on the turn, but inducing the river bluff is something that has some value as well, and needs to be considered. [/ QUOTE ] inducing a bluff when villian has outs loses some of its value. it is a definately thing to consider though b/c you do gain value when its a time you're behind ... but he can't fold turn or river if you dont bet. and you dont want to be seen as somebody to F*CK with or who gives up easily (checking the turn) after capping the flop. image is definately imortant here for the rest of the hands vs. WSOP boy. -Barron
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#15
08-05-2005, 09:10 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
Duke nailed this, he's not folding any hand that 3 bets the flop on this board. In your line there is no way i'm betting this turn, he's folding nothing and we are more likely to be taking a free card than giving one.
Thus my only decision is, if i want to 4 bet and get to showdown cheaply at the cost of losing implied odds on the turn or if i want to call the 3 bet, keep implied odds on the turn but pay more for showdown; in those two lines i prefer your line. I think this hand was played as well as possible.
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#16
08-05-2005, 10:00 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
Well it seems to me that under reasonable assumptions (opponent sensibly more likely to have the best hand, check raise a minority of time and check raise means best hand in the vast majority of time), then betting the turn and checking the showdown is actually cheaper than taking the free card and calling the river.
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#17
08-05-2005, 10:12 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
standard. 4 bet preflop and bet the turn make sense too though. lots of legit feel based ways to play a hand like this. shorthanded against obsevant opponents you should tend to opt for the less predictable/stranger route whenever it's close.
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#18
08-05-2005, 10:14 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
Hi Gift:
You have an easy call. Many times in this spot the super aggressive will three bet the flop hoping to get you to laydown when he bets the next round. If that's the case, you messed up his plans with your four bet. When you check the turn, you're inviting the bluff. So given the size of the pot, you should catch him bluffing often enough to make a profit on the call. By the way, in these spots, a good hand to gamble with is precisely the type of hand you flopped, a pair and a flush draw. You're usually a slight favorite to win the pot on the flop, and occasionally have the best hand with your small pair. Best wishes, Mason
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#19
08-05-2005, 10:19 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
Hi Stox:
Your answer is incorrect. The correct answer has to do with exactly how often he might be out of line and will then bluff the river after your fourth street check. With some players, their chance of being out of line on the flop is quite high, and then their chance of bluffing the river is also quite high. With this type of opponent, it's clearly correct to check the turn. By the way, many of these real aggressive types, if they held a real hand, will always go for a check raise on fourth street after you raise on the flop. That's part of the reason why your answer is not correct. Their three betting the flop actully means less strebgth, not more. Best wishes, Mason
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#20
08-05-2005, 10:24 PM
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Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
"Their three betting the flop actully means less strength, not more."
well done. but beware because particularly good players hang players who read hands and try and pick off rampant aggression. what we do is we go aggro on all streets with our best hands per feeney's essay from his book for instance. additionally players who fastplay everything and make it very hard to read them are unfortunately fairly commong at higher limits.
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