NL 400 6 max, AK sooooted - Page 2

Go_Blue88 · #11 11-03-2005, 12:55 AM

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You really think average villain is raising anything but QQ/KK/AA? I dunno. I think you have great FE against QQ/JJ and a ton of dead money, but I think it's still -EV by a bit. Not horrible, a good image move, but -EV.

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I think this post pretty much sums up my new outlook on this type of hand.

Go_Blue88 · #12 11-03-2005, 12:59 AM

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You really think average villain is raising anything but QQ/KK/AA? I dunno. I think you have great FE against QQ/JJ and a ton of dead money, but I think it's still -EV by a bit. Not horrible, a good image move, but -EV.

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Yes Juster, he is correct. The thing that makes it close is you have may have decent FE here. I still think it can easily be JJ/QQ/AK which may all be folded and even if called, you are not in bad shape.

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Since when have you been Larry David? That's crazy talk, I think I've responded to some of your posts without realizing it was you. And ya, the reason I posted it was to see others' perspectives on the fold equity I had. I dunno, I've been thinking about this one in boring classes lately, thanks fer the responses.

TheWorstPlayer · #13 11-03-2005, 12:59 AM

Looks good to me. Unless you get unlucky and run into KK or AA from the average dude you are going to be either getting two folds, a fold from the average dude and a call with either a dominated hand or a coin flip (with a padded pot) from the maniac, or you may get a call from a hand like QQ from average dude and then whatever maniac likes at this moment which probably does not put you in bad shape, especially getting 2:1.

BobboFitos · #14 11-03-2005, 02:00 AM

and you wonder why fish bashing got more posts then this?

post this in tourney forum or something. he's a maniac, you got your money in with AK, whats interesting?

Go_Blue88 · #15 11-03-2005, 03:01 AM

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and you wonder why fish bashing got more posts then this?

post this in tourney forum or something. he's a maniac, you got your money in with AK, whats interesting?

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I dunno, I thought it was interesting to figure out what kind of FE I had for the average player. That's the key to this hand. Maybe it's not as complicated as I thought it was, but I've been thinking about it fer a while so I felt like posting it. And actually, it's going to help me become a better player, so I've got that goin for me.

BobboFitos · #16 11-03-2005, 03:05 AM

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I thought it was interesting to figure out what kind of FE I had for the average player.

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But you said he was a maniac! I thought you were valuepushing AKs. Why are you trying to make him fold? I thought this was routine/good becuase he'll get in worse then AK...

yvesaint · #17 11-03-2005, 03:11 AM

what's average villain like? bad? dumb? what's his stack size? i think im more worried about him than maniac

although "maniac" can mean a lot of things he can be maniacle with the 2nd raise, postflop, and with river bluffs, but i dont think a 3rd raise pre-flop to 1/4th of your stack can really be anything worse than AK ......is he a smart maniac? dumb maniac? do you really see him doing this with 66-JJ (depends on first villain's stack size, of course, if his stack is like 100-200 then 2nd villains range opens up), or AQ-AT?

Go_Blue88 · #18 11-03-2005, 03:17 AM

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I thought it was interesting to figure out what kind of FE I had for the average player.

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But you said he was a maniac! I thought you were valuepushing AKs. Why are you trying to make him fold? I thought this was routine/good becuase he'll get in worse then AK...

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Well, I'm not sure if I'm just misinterpreting you or if you misread the OP, but to restate:

I raised, the average player reraised, the maniac reraised, and I pushed.

So, I had a hard time assigning the average player a hand range because the maniac affects his decisions (and you prolly know the reasons for that even better than me). For this reason, I felt that his hand range for re-raising might be a lot wider than just AA and KK. As for maniac, I agree that I think I could be in somewhat good shape if he called, but the key was getting "average player" to fold. I was hoping that my image would cause him to put me on AA...anyways I feel like i'm just restating what i said earlier in a simpler form and if you already read that, then it's a waste of your time.

I actually wanted maniac to fold as I felt there was a good chance that i was facing a coinflip situation.

If you already knew all this, and were just saying that it's obvious that "average player" will fold here, and maniac could have any 2, then sorry about that. I just felt that average player complicated everything a lot. (So, sort of implicitly I guess, I was wondering if folding p/f is a better option).

#19 11-03-2005, 03:19 AM

I wouldn't 4-bet preflop with AK, with 2 other people in the hand, no matter what I knew about these 2 people. The chances are too high that I'm either dominated, or a coinflip at best.

BobboFitos · #20 11-03-2005, 03:18 PM

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So, I had a hard time assigning the average player a hand range because the maniac affects his decisions (and you prolly know the reasons for that even better than me). For this reason, I felt that his hand range for re-raising might be a lot wider than just AA and KK. As for maniac, I agree that I think I could be in somewhat good shape if he called, but the key was getting "average player" to fold. I was hoping that my image would cause him to put me on AA...anyways I feel like i'm just restating what i said earlier in a simpler form and if you already read that, then it's a waste of your time.

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You're not wasting my time, I hope I'm not wasting yours.

I still think even a maniac needs a big hand to put in the third raise preflop, and unless you're value pushing your hand (counting him on having dominated aces or random trash) it's a bad move, simply because when he DOES wake up with AA or KK (and even a maniac, given the action, should have those a fair % of the time) you're putting in a ton of BBs pretty bad.

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I actually wanted maniac to fold as I felt there was a good chance that i was facing a coinflip situation.

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the problem with a maniac is they typically put alot of money out there and dont go away. Well, problem, unless you capitalize on it. If he drops QQ i'd be pretty surprised, and he may gamble with smaller pairs. So, counting on him folding what he's probably reraising with (aside from absolute trash, which he needs to have a good amount of time to turn this into pos EV) isn't the best plan.

I would fold here, and it would be icky, but it's the best course. If you see him put the 3rd raise on a fairly frequent basis, then you know:
a. either he's raising tons of trash he WILL fold
b. or he's raising tons of weaker aces he may call (and you'll have a huge edge!) then push is a great play.

Until then, though, even maniac pick up big hands, I think I give him credit this time around.

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If you already knew all this, and were just saying that it's obvious that "average player" will fold here, and maniac could have any 2, then sorry about that. I just felt that average player complicated everything a lot. (So, sort of implicitly I guess, I was wondering if folding p/f is a better option).

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I think folding is the best play, and hey, I dont like advocating folding!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]