A high call, and extracting with quads - 100NL

BZ_Zorro · #1 08-02-2005, 12:53 PM

Thought these hands might be interesting to someone. I'll walk you through my thinking during the hand and if something is off let me know. Both are a few hands in, no reads or data.

Hand 1:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

Hero ($98.70)
BB ($93)
UTG ($101.55)
UTG+1 ($94.65)
UTG+2 ($106.75)
MP1 ($97.50)
MP2 ($161.65)
MP3 ($97.50)
CO ($137.10)
Button ($168.43)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
7 folds, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Button calls $3.

Flop: ($9) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3.

At this point I'm not buying it. Call with the intention of re evaluating the turn

Turn: ($15) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

Flush + overs, that's worth a weak bet

River: ($27) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $20, Hero calls $20.

My thinking: It's 3 handed, he called a PF raise on the button, and showed weakness throughout. Why the sudden river bet? Possibilities are a pocket pair, a lone J, slowplayed trips, or a bluff...which is it? To me it looked like he put me on overs and wanted a fold. Anyone agree?

Final Pot: $67

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Kh (three of a kind, nines).
Button has Qh Ks (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $67. 


Hand 2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

Hero ($129.70)
CO ($92.90)
Button ($99.55)
SB ($108.60)
BB ($97.50)
UTG ($161.65)
UTG+1 ($97.50)
MP1 ($134.43)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets $1, Hero calls $1, Button raises to $5, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls $4, Hero raises to $9, Button calls $4, MP1 calls $4.

Thinking: It's a multi way pot, and I've crippled the deck so people are unlikely to have hit anything. Let them have some free cards. The min reraise I saw as a perfect opportunity to build a pot. In this situation I don't believe it screams monster, it's more confusing than anything, which is good imo. A draw, 10 or overpair have to call the extra $4.

Turn: ($32) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $7, Button calls $7, MP1 calls $7.

Don't want to scare anyone off, trying to set myself up to be reraised by Button and/or called by a draw. Also want them feeling OK on the river. Is the bet too small?

River: ($53) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $15, Button calls $15, MP1 folds.

I basically sought a happy balance between value bet and reraise potential. Thoughts?

Final Pot: $83

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9c 9h (four of a kind, nines).
Button has Th As (two pair, tens and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $83.

kingofswing · #2 08-02-2005, 01:19 PM

First hand I don't call because there's no way you can put him on a worse hand then yours. First of all, your turn bet showed some strength and he just called. So he must have something. He definitely has some piece of the flop. Most likely a J, but maybe a 9. River bet is a guaranteed value bet. He thinks you have a high PP and will call thinking your full house is good. No way he is trying to blow you off your hand with the only two hands that you beat (AQ/KQ). Fold.

Second hand, I don't like flop raise. Very drawsy board and you don't know how strong their hands are. I call, mostly so I don't lose the MP. I hope the turn is a flush card or straight card, but even if it isn't, you really want to let someone who might have AT bet again trying to push out the draws. Either way, I hate the check raise here. That screams that you have a monster. At least lead out. if you want to bet. But as is, I love calling the flop and praying for a good card on the turn.

Turn is tough, but I think you check here too if the button is aggressive and let him bet. Hopefully he does. If he doesn't, hope river is a good card, and value bet it.

You got a lot out of these guys here, but mostly because they are dumb. Any good player would fold to your check/minraise on the flop. Unfortunately, donks cannot smell out their own plays...

BZ_Zorro · #3 08-02-2005, 01:37 PM

Great reply, thanks. I disagree with this though:

[ QUOTE ]
Any good player would fold to your check/minraise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would a good player really fold for an extra $4 into a $24 pot? I agree that it might affect action on the turn, but I was looking to build a big pot so I could get bigger calls from draws (namely MP1) and weaker hands on the turn.

Just in case Button had a big hand (he did reraise to 5), the min raise gave him a chance to get in before a scare card, while also keeping MP2's draw in if that didn't happen. Thoughts?

kingofswing · #4 08-02-2005, 01:48 PM

Okay, I take it back, they won't fold, but the action will dry up big time without a flush or straight card, and even then they might think T9 and slow down.

I don't love your line, but the more I look at it I can't find a way to extract more. The real issue is that when someone check/minraises on the flop after a bet and a raise, you know they have a great hand. Why give that away? Why not pretend to play your hand as if you are on a draw? At least, if someone bets the turn you can push all-in and maybe grab a call from someone who thinks you are pushing them around.

By betting you stole the lead from the button and now no one is going to bet without a dynamite hand. As in, by the button's play, I bet he would have bet the turn and you could've gotten some more money in the pot maybe.

LetYouDown · #5 08-02-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would a good player really fold for an extra $4 into a $24 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, with anything other than 10-10. Leading disguises your hand, check min-raising is downright awful. Good players bail here, bad players give you much less than you could have gotten by leading out. Check/calling I put somewhere in the middle as it can look like an idiot on a flush draw with a paired board. I bet this every single time at these limits, and get people to defend their hands. If someone at this limit bet into you, would you think they have a 9?

The first hand seems like a case where you were frustrated that you missed with a semi-premium hand and got lucky that he was bluffing you with air.

BZ_Zorro · #6 08-02-2005, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would a good player really fold for an extra $4 into a $24 pot?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, with anything other than 10-10.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So check minraising against good players is a foolproof bluff play?

LetYouDown · #7 08-02-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So check minraising against good players is a foolproof bluff play?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, until you run into a real hand, a donk, or someone that has notes on you. If I had sat at the table and had no notes on you, I fold A-10 here in a second and don't even think twice about it...all the while thanking you for being transparent. I'd also unload all overpairs.

stealyourface · #8 08-02-2005, 02:07 PM

In hand #2 I like a call of the flop raise.

When you raise, you take the lead in the betting, and therefore are required to bet on the turn.

I think you can extract more if you check call the flop and let them continue to bet on the turn.

kingofswing · #9 08-02-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would a good player really fold for an extra $4 into a $24 pot?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, with anything other than 10-10.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So check minraising against good players is a foolproof bluff play?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually a very interesting point. The reasons it doesn't usually work are:

1. it promotes calling, which obviously is not what you want with a bluff. maybe if you continue by betting big on the turn/river you can get a lay down.

2. the other problem is that sometimes people just won't get off their hand. for instance AK might not fold a A98 board to a minraise and call down bets because he thinks TPTK is the nuts.

the big thing in this hand anyway is to build a pot you want someone else betting. a minraise usually slows people way way down unless they have a great hand as well. in this situation, you have the deck crippled. without a flush/straight card coming or someone holding TT, your minraise is going to dry up the betting. what you want is drawing hands calling/betting and the guy with a T to keep betting as well. the guy with the T isn't going to keep betting if you minraise. i think that sums it up pretty well.

if you want to build the pot, then raise original guy up, that might look like a T. however, once the SB bets, i think i call down the flop, hope button bets turn, and go big on the river.

Huckle · #10 08-02-2005, 02:22 PM

Hand 1, I really can't see you calling the flop bet. The worst hand I would put him on (with no reads), is AJ. Maybe if I was really stretching it give QT/T8 a 20% chance. AK is a pretty speculative hand, here you can just give it up.

Hand 2, as previously posted, the flop check-minraise screams at least a set to me. I don't even consider myself a good player, but what would you put yourself on? A min-raise on that kind of flop is the same thing as wanting to be reraised again and go all-in.

If you had a disguised set, you might minraise the flop and get callers, but with a paired/3-flush board, a decent player should get out of there.

Call the bet on the flop, check to the button again whatever turn card hits. If he bets again, call again, but whatever happens, bet out on the river. Try to make a big enough bet to look like an overbet, but not betting the straight for value and you might get a call from AT, a high pocket pair or something else.