Totally lost - QQ Party 30/60

stevepa · #1 08-03-2005, 12:06 AM

Reads are pretty limited, but here they are:
UTG: Only 20 hands, but 80/10/0.76
MP1: 34/14/2.35 over 500 hands. He's definitely too loose both pre and post flop and pretty aggressive post flop. I don't remember ever seeing him bluff-raise the river.
Others I've only played ~20 hands with, all seem fairly reasonable so far.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (17.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, Hero...

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

So...preflop I assume is standard. Postflop I was completely lost. I can't protect the hand and was originally planning to raise the turn. When the new guy bet out I wimped out of that. After the river, I'm almost certainly beat but getting 11:1...Also slightly worried about getting 3-bet. I'm pretty sure I butchered this hand badly but I'm having trouble coming up with a line I like...

Steve

DcifrThs · #2 08-03-2005, 12:44 AM

raise the flop and its soooo not close.

Barron

stevepa · #3 08-03-2005, 12:55 AM

Ok, I'm assuming cap if 3-bet and bet the turn after the flop raise (calling down if raised on the turn). Given the flop call, what would you do on the turn and river. I assume the flop raise is mostly for value, although it seems like it makes the rest of the hand easier to play as well...

Steve

TStoneMBD · #4 08-03-2005, 01:14 AM

id like to see what 1800gambler has to say on this because he advised waiting until the turn to raise in fianchettos post and it was a fairly similiar situation.

however i agree that the play is raising the flop and its not close.

drbk2 · #5 08-03-2005, 02:10 AM

"I can't protect the hand and was originally planning to raise the turn. When the new guy bet out I wimped out of that"

The new guy is UTG, who may have been one less guy to worry about if you raised the flop. Not to beat a dead horse, but just agreeing with the other two responses that you must raise the flop here.

Given that you played the hand the way you did, i think you have to fold the river here.

Equal · #6 08-03-2005, 02:14 AM

When you can't trotect your hand with a raise, raise for value. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Maier · #7 08-03-2005, 02:19 AM

It doesnt seem like a flop raise is for "value". Nobody who caught any piece of the flop is making a "mistake" by calling a raise on the flop so what is the point? YOu're not gaining anything, the raise is just volatility. So, what is the point of raising this flop?

drbk2 · #8 08-03-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It doesnt seem like a flop raise is for "value". Nobody who caught any piece of the flop is making a "mistake" by calling a raise on the flop so what is the point? YOu're not gaining anything, the raise is just volatility. So, what is the point of raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you don't know what "for value" really means then

DcifrThs · #9 08-03-2005, 02:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesnt seem like a flop raise is for "value". Nobody who caught any piece of the flop is making a "mistake" by calling a raise on the flop so what is the point? YOu're not gaining anything, the raise is just volatility. So, what is the point of raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you don't know what "for value" really means then

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm guessing he doens't know what Poker really means.

-Barron

siegfriedandroy · #10 08-03-2005, 04:14 AM

so value simply means putting the money in when you have the best hand, right?

you guys still could have answered his question and explain why it's not close.

this issue confuses me a bit as well (and i think a lot of people), after reading miller's chapter in sshe, which discusses waiting till the turn to raise.

could someone please explain why this situation is not close? what makes this situation so clearly different than the one in miller's book? the pot is large in both, bet will not protect your hand, etc. what conditions are determinative in deciding when to raise?

thanks