Pumping the Turn

Vern · #1 03-13-2005, 10:10 PM

I understanding pumping, just looking for some feedback on how I did on this hand. Thanks.

UTG is a TAG, hundred of hands, he will only be open raising here with AK-AQ, maybe AJs, AA-JJ, maybe TT, maybe KQs. I doubt KQo, KJs or AJo.
MP1 is a loose passive fish, loves to chase
MP2 is loose and a little wild.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

 I didn't want to threebet this because that might have scared the TAG off unless he had AA-JJ, I don't think he can have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] unless he has AA. Also, if I three-bet and the UTG TAG caps, MP1 is gone. When it back to me for the cap, that is an easy raise

Turn: (12.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls $8 (All-In), Hero ?

I was ready to pump the turn here, but then realized MP2 was now all in. I figured I had 9 flush outs, 6 sraight outs (I really didn't discount the 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] much since it was backdoor, but I completely discounted my overcard outs here. I figure I have 15 solid outs to a winning hand here, there are 46 cards unseen, so I would be justified in pumping this turn if MP2 hadn't run out of money.

As always, comments on any and all parts of the hand are more than welcome.

Vern

Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.

btspider · #2 03-13-2005, 10:16 PM

call.. this lets UTG lead the river and allows you to raise the field when you catch.

also, UTG is playing pretty strongly/fancy.. he could have AA or JJ most of the time.. which means those times he has JJ taints some of your outs.

Super Pro · #3 03-13-2005, 10:24 PM

pumping the turn is usually a bad idea. some of your outs may be bad. also you can raise the river when you hit when you actually have a hand.

brettbrettr · #4 03-13-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
didn't want to threebet this because that might have scared the TAG off unless he had AA-JJ,

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You have king-high, I don't get this.

rmarotti · #5 03-13-2005, 10:55 PM

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You have king-high, I don't get this.

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This is a joke right?

Vern · #6 03-13-2005, 11:11 PM

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didn't want to threebet this because that might have scared the TAG off unless he had AA-JJ,

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You have king-high, I don't get this.

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I have a two card flush draw to the second nut flush.

On the flop, there are 47 unknown cards, any 9 of which will give me a flush, 8 of which will not pair the board. I have a very strong draw and so many opponents I want it capped 4 ways right now. That is pumping the flop. I am 2.16:1 to make my flush by the river, so if I can get 3 bets in the pot for every 1 I put in, I am making .84 bets on every bet I put in.

Once I get to the turn, I have an OESD and flush draw, 15 total outs. There are now 3 aces(A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and 2 nines (9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] & 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) that give me the nuts (5), then another 6 club outs (9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) to the second nut flush and 2 outs to a king high flush but also pair the board. (T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] & 6:club) Technically, I also have two overcards, but hitting either one would put three to a straight on the board and would be unlikely to win against the aggression that has been shown. I am 2.07:1 to have a two card straight or flush on the river, with three people still putting money in, I would have been making a bet for every one I put in. (Ignoring the fact A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is the nut flush and pairing the board would be bad) If MP2 still had money to contibute it might have been worth it, but without his money, the fact that A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] could be out there or the board pairs, it would be -EV, I think.

Vern

Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.

psyduck · #7 03-13-2005, 11:14 PM

I would pump that, but it is close to calling. you have a huge draw against 3 players. what's more, both pumping and calling are very close to the expectation that they produce, so arguing this is sorta unnecessary. however, reads would be helpful. the fact that you see that utg is a TAG who THREE-BET THE FLOP places him on something like AA-JJ (probably JJ), so you can argue that calling is slightly better than pumping.

bilbo-san · #8 03-13-2005, 11:43 PM

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pumping the turn is usually a bad idea. some of your outs may be bad. also you can raise the river when you hit when you actually have a hand.

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I second this. The fact that some of your outs might be discounted makes pumping the turn for value somewhat questionable, and if someone is all-in, I agree that it would be -EV.

btspider · #9 03-13-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would pump that, but it is close to calling. you have a huge draw against 3 players. what's more, both pumping and calling are very close to the expectation that they produce, so arguing this is sorta unnecessary. however, reads would be helpful. the fact that you see that utg is a TAG who THREE-BET THE FLOP places him on something like AA-JJ (probably JJ), so you can argue that calling is slightly better than pumping.

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also, if he's got JJ.. he's capping the 3-bet and presenting two players (we're assuming the 4th guy isn't all-in) with 2-bets.. if one folds, our value raise is boned.. if they both call, we might have less outs than we think.. its a lose-lose situation.

brettbrettr · #10 03-13-2005, 11:47 PM

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You have king-high, I don't get this.

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This is a joke right?

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What I was trying to get across is that my gut reaction was to raise, try and knock the UTG guy out, that's all. Maybe you could get him to fold a better king.