Now I know what its like to play against me

[curtains]

I would bet the flop, something like 3500-4500...even aggressive players don't routinely check raise flops with nothing for such a large chunk of their stack.

[Surfbullet]

Hey MLG,

Wow, this situation is tough. He's aggressive, but is he thinking/good? Because your stack in this situation is the perfect size for him to (semi)bluff c/r allin on the flop - you are going to be hard pressed to call here with anything short of a good K, while your hand range includes lots of Aces and PPs that can't call. (you know all this of course.)

Despite my hand-protection instincts, i'm going to advocate checking through this flop. He'll bet at nearly any turn regardless of his holding trying to pick up the pot, so i'll make up what I lacked in hand protection by snapping off bluffs.

Depending on the turn card and our estimation of his preflop calling range we can then decide if it's best to raise for a free showdown, call to snap off his bluff, or fold outright - they are all valid options depending on what comes off. The Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would make me want to fold. A non-club Ace or K would make me more inclined to raise for a free showdown. Blanks and i'll probably flat-call and give him a chance to hang himself with another bet on the river unless he'll possibly bluff-allin on the river after you call the turn, in which case I probably raise or fold the turn.

Man, this spot sucks. It makes me want to just push the flop so I don't have to think about it. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I did something none of you expected. I bet 3500 on the flop and folded to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey MLG,

I don't know much about your playstyle, but I would have done the same at the table. Unfortunately he can(should) be pushing you allin with alot of stuff here, especially if that's how he'll normally play a K. Very interesting hand, it really got me (and many others, I think) to thinking.

Surf

[ QUOTE ]
I did something none of you expected. I bet 3500 on the flop and folded to a push. If I check the flop I think I'm comitting myself to play a big pot because I need to call a big bet on the turn and river if he makes them, and it can get very hard to do that depending on what cards come since there are a lot of ugly looking ones. If I check the flop, I dont really see a benefit to raising the turn as opposed to calling and tempting him into bluffing again. As for not calling the flop push, its close but Im crushed by a K, which he plays this way close to 100% of the time here. While Im way ahead of 9s there just arent that many hands he can have with a 9 in it. And of the flush draws the vast majority are really only 3:2 dogs to me as they have some overcard. Given how close it was (if we were to do the math I dont think a call is more than marginally +EV at best) I decided to fold as my stack was still quite healthy in the middle of the pack, and I was very comfortable at my table. See, I'm not a complete calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Steve Chase]

I would bet 1/2 the pot after the turn if my flop bet is called. You don't want to give a free ride to flush draws, or Ax, Qx, Jx hands to outdraw you.

My question is: What do you do if you are the first to act after flop? Do you still bet 2/3 pot after flop if you are first to act?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I did something none of you expected. I bet 3500 on the flop and folded to a push. If I check the flop I think I'm comitting myself to play a big pot because I need to call a big bet on the turn and river if he makes them, and it can get very hard to do that depending on what cards come since there are a lot of ugly looking ones. If I check the flop, I dont really see a benefit to raising the turn as opposed to calling and tempting him into bluffing again. As for not calling the flop push, its close but Im crushed by a K, which he plays this way close to 100% of the time here. While Im way ahead of 9s there just arent that many hands he can have with a 9 in it. And of the flush draws the vast majority are really only 3:2 dogs to me as they have some overcard. Given how close it was (if we were to do the math I dont think a call is more than marginally +EV at best) I decided to fold as my stack was still quite healthy in the middle of the pack, and I was very comfortable at my table. See, I'm not a complete calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, probably fine.

[GoldenHorde]

If the plan is to call him down because he is likely to bluff turn and river, I think the better line is to bet out and call his check raise. I don't want him to reconsider bluffing on the turn with smaller PP's if a scary card like an Ace or Queen falls.

I would have to be pretty confident in my read, and this is much harder online, but if i'm going with it I get it in on the flop so he doesn't reconsider with a worse hand. I do know against the right kind of player my range in that spot is huge as the stack sizes are flop are perfect to put you to the test.

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet 1/2 the pot after the turn if my flop bet is called. You don't want to give a free ride to flush draws, or Ax, Qx, Jx hands to outdraw you.

My question is: What do you do if you are the first to act after flop? Do you still bet 2/3 pot after flop if you are first to act?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the same player? Yes, probably somewhere in that vicinity, maybe a little more - obviously there is a lot of "feel" involved in deciding these bets, and that can only be gained from playing at the table for a while . But I can tell you one thing - I'm not going to start off showing weakness just because an overcard hits, and I'm certainly not giving him a free shot at any draw (be it A or club). And if I get raised a decent amount, then once again I'll probably be folding.

A lot of people have discussed moving in on a check/raise or on the turn, just because the opponent is aggressive - but aggressive doesn't necessarily make him a maniac; he could have a hand. I don't think this is a good position to risk your whole tournament - you certainly have a deep enough stack to be able to lay down 1010 to heavy betting on a solid overcard, and find a better spot. Also, you have to keep in mind - sometimes it's good to show an opponent you are capable of laying a big one down. It makes it easier for them to get caught in the trap you set further on down the road.

[locutus2002]

I'm not wild about the fold.

There's ~T33K in the pot and hero has to call ~T23K getting 3:2 and only has to be 40% in the hand.

This villain is going to make this play 100% of the time with a 9, a K, two spades.

Hero is at least 50% in the hand.

Given the fact that hero will offer a continuation bet almost 100% of the time, villain is getting implied odds of ~6:1 to call BTF. He may even c/r bottom pair or less.

If he has the king then why would he want to move hero out of the hand with what should be a 3 outer, unless he's convinced hero will call which of course was not the case.

Then there is the tournament situation: If hero wins he has ~T57K, and is a big stack. If hero folds he has T23K an average stack.

Given that villain is capable of this play with less than the nuts, this is an unpleasant call. IMO.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
because I'm trying to keep BB's potential check-raise small enough that I have fold equity when I jam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold-equity against which hands exactly? FE is really the last relevant thing for you on this specific hand.