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  #11  
Old 12-31-2005, 10:06 AM
HouseCalls HouseCalls is offline
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

*grunch*
Preflop - ok
Flop - raise to find out where you are. You want to chase out lower pairs or even a weak ace here. If he reraises fold or call (just so you don't look like you can be pushed around) and fold the turn UI.
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  #12  
Old 12-31-2005, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

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The advice given here is too aggressive IMO, 99 is not a 3-betting hand out of the BB against a MP1 raise. You are OOP in the hand, there is no reason to bloat the pot pre flop. This is a check fold on the flop against most players.

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.
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  #13  
Old 12-31-2005, 10:39 AM
dozer dozer is offline
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

[ QUOTE ]
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The advice given here is too aggressive IMO, 99 is not a 3-betting hand out of the BB against a MP1 raise. You are OOP in the hand, there is no reason to bloat the pot pre flop. This is a check fold on the flop against most players.

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

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Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.
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  #14  
Old 12-31-2005, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

Hate playing mid-pairs too. Almost never get a flop u really like. And if u flop overcards ull have to guess all the way if ure behind or not.

But on this hand I think its an easy fold on the flop. Ure behind most hands MP1 can hold (if he is a typical player): AA-77, AK-AT, A9s. The only thing u can beat is KQ or maybe KJs. U have very few outs. If he is tight u can bet the flop once hoping he folds. But normally, just give up. This medium sized pot aint worth it.
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2005, 10:51 AM
masse75 masse75 is offline
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

To close things out, MP1 was holding AQh and probably didn't even break a sweat after the flop.

Looking back, I see the flop as a fold or raise situation. Didn't have a read on MP1, but I don't see him raising with Kx, so I know I'm behind.

Turn helped a bit, giving me 8 new outs (really, only 6 new because of the heart draw).

Weak, weak, weak...and I gladly call away 2.5BB's.
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2005, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not here to regurgitate everything that's in SSHE. Also, the recommendations in SSHE are just that: recommendations. There's always a case for more or less aggressive play, depending on the situation. I don't mind pushing edges like this: we're up against weak players, and can make better decisions than most post-flop.
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2005, 11:26 AM
dozer dozer is offline
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not here to regurgitate everything that's in SSHE. Also, the recommendations in SSHE are just that: recommendations. There's always a case for more or less aggressive play, depending on the situation. I don't mind pushing edges like this: we're up against weak players, and can make better decisions than most post-flop.

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Yes situational. No reads were given in this post. So I would go with the standard way of playing the hand. Which is following SSHE. If we had specific reads then saying this is situational makes more sense. So you are 3-betting 99 out of the BB everytime regardless of what type player you are against.

If villain has overcards, he is not making a mistake preflop against your 99 when you 3-bet, how is this pushing your edge.

By keeping the pot small when out of position, you gain more from when the flop comes low and villain makes the mistake of chasing his overcards given the improper odds, by bloating the pot villain is correct to call after the flop with overcard. If the flop is terrible, you can just check fold.
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2005, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

:grunching

If I were MP1 I would make a note of you being a calling station. What hands do you put villain on that you beat?
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  #19  
Old 12-31-2005, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

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The way you played it, all you know is he either has an Ace, a pocket pair greater than 7, or clubs. That's kind of not enough information.

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Um, he could have lots of hands and just keep betting out to pretend he hit that ace.

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How many hands does villain raise from MP1 that you beat? How many hands does he raise that have you beaten?
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  #20  
Old 12-31-2005, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: My weakness...middle pairs

[ QUOTE ]
Yes situational. No reads were given in this post. So I would go with the standard way of playing the hand. Which is following SSHE. If we had specific reads then saying this is situational makes more sense. So you are 3-betting 99 out of the BB everytime regardless of what type player you are against.

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Not always, but if it's a MP1 raise, and only the small blind has called, then I think that 3-betting is best. We're going to win more than 1/3 of the time. How large must the pocket pair be before you'd 3-bet it?

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If villain has overcards, he is not making a mistake preflop against your 99 when you 3-bet, how is this pushing your edge.

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This is a non-sequitur. The villain doesn't have to make a mistake for our raise to be profitable. Betting into someone, who has the odds to call, is not wrong. Your logic would mean that we ought not to bet into someone with a flush draw, since they can call profitably.

If we could see his cards, and he ours, what would the preflop action be?

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By keeping the pot small when out of position, you gain more from when the flop comes low and villain makes the mistake of chasing his overcards given the improper odds, by bloating the pot villain is correct to call after the flop with overcard. If the flop is terrible, you can just check fold.

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There's nothing wrong with this approach, but it does mean that you'll lose a pot once in a while to continuation bets. Taking the more aggressive approach is at least justifiable, and I think better.
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