When Villains Attack

[kevkev60614]

I've been thinking more about the c/c flop, lead turn line. I know this line isn't used that much in SnGs cuz of the shorter stacks, but the underlying reason to use it is controlling pot size, something I don't know anything about and isn't talked about enough here, I feel.

In another thread 11t says
[ QUOTE ]
c/r is too expensive and c/c lead the turn lets you get off cheap cus people either have the goods or big balls to push over a turn 2/3 pot bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
And Scuba Chuck says
[ QUOTE ]
My assumption is that this keeps the pot smaller for taking impetus on a safe turn card (like the one that happened), if we decide to do so. If the turn is a club or an over, we can easily release. The way I played it, with the c/r, if villain calls, and the turn is a club or an ace (or any over), we're up sh*t creek.

[/ QUOTE ]
So I have two questions:
1) It seems to me that when you c/c, lead turn rather than c/r flop, you lose a little FE but the hand is much easier to play because if your flop c/r is called you have no idea whether to lead turn or not with a marginal holding. Also, c/c, lead turn gets you a cheaper showdown. Are these the two big reasons for the line?

2) When a villain c/c, leads turn against me at the $11s, I assume his turn lead very often means that the turn card hit him. Is it often that he is trying to get a cheap showdown with a marginal holding, or is this unlikely for the $11 donks and more likely for higher buy-in players?

Thanks in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[kevkev60614]

Awwww, come on. 45suited, pineapple, pergesu, bluefeet. I see you looking RIGHT AT THIS POST! Is it too long to read? Do I have to post a made up HH to catch your attention? Here:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)
Hero BB (t1535)
UTG (t845)
UTG+1 (t1280)
MP1 (t605)
MP2 (t955)
MP3 (t725)
CO (t600)
Button (t715)
Villain SB (t740)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ??
2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 4 folds, Villain completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t90) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets t60, MP1 folds, Villain calls t60.

Turn: (t210) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain bets t150

Take a stab, someone. Does villain have a weak J? A deuce? Whatcha think?

Oh, and lets not forget about question #1...

[pineapple888]

Well, if you're going to call me out by name and all...

In all honesty, I think it's counter-productive to burn lots of mental energy on the debate you describe in the first post when you're talking about the shallow-stack no-limit SNGs that almost all of us here play.

These sorts of plays become important in limit play or in deeper-stack cash games. But in Party SNGs, I might make this play once every 100 tournaments. There's just rarely a reason to get fancy.

In your sample HH, villain could have anything. I'd really have to be sitting at the table to make a decision. Sometimes I'd fold AJ, sometimes I'd call down with middle pair. It all depends whether I think he's FOS or not.

[Dave D]

Hi, I'm usually in the MTT forum, but I check around here sometimes as the $33 party SnGs are my main squeeze.

I've actually been making this move a LOT in SnGs in the last month or two. I pretty much never fold when I do it though, I do it when I have a set or AK w/ a paired K/A. This move was discussed in MTT sometime back as a way to get more value out of agressive villians when you're pretty sure you have them beat, rather than trying to get them to fold. In MTT it was advanced as an alternative to c/ring the flop. Waiting till the turn allows the other guy to feel better about his hand and/or get pissed at you and so he's more likely to pay you off, rather than c/ring the flop which could be seen more easily as "he has me beat". In other words if you c/r the flop, villian might just think "ok, he has me beat, I can't call with my flush draw", whereas doing it on the turn makes him feel more committed to the hand, or maybe even lets him improve a little w/o beating you.

Overall, I see it as an alternative to the c/r, and is a good way to mix things up (as I rarely c/r these days).

[kevkev60614]

Thanks a bunch for the responses. They actually really helped me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty, I think it's counter-productive to burn lots of mental energy on the debate you describe in the first post when you're talking about the shallow-stack no-limit SNGs that almost all of us here play.

[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely true. But as I described in my OP, it's all about learning how to control pot size, which is valuable even to SNGers. Moreso to those who play on Stars, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
In your sample HH, villain could have anything. I'd really have to be sitting at the table to make a decision. Sometimes I'd fold AJ, sometimes I'd call down with middle pair. It all depends whether I think he's FOS or not.

[/ QUOTE ]This is why I wanted to avoid posting a specific hand. I was wondering whether it was possible to generalize. I'll just chalk this up as "This move is so uncommon to see, it's generally a donk who got hit hard by the turn card." [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
This move was discussed in MTT sometime back

[/ QUOTE ]
Link please?

Thanks again. If anybody else has a comment on the seldom-seen check/call, lead turn line, I'd love to hear it.