When is the nuts not the nuts? - Page 2

Acesover8s · #11 05-04-2005, 12:28 PM

Wow you had a straight and a flush draw!

This is ME swooning for YOU!

Ribbo · #12 05-04-2005, 06:35 PM

*yawn* The fact that you are focusing on what I had and not what the other guy has, shows you're inability to learn. Learning at poker involves focusing on the bad hands not the good hands.

Wintermute · #13 05-04-2005, 06:43 PM

I got to thinking about the low part of this hand and began wondering what would've happened if the guy had a better low draw and a low non-diamond came and Ribbo got quartered (besides his post never being made, that is)...

Well, I ran the hand on twodimes. As the cards actually fell, Ribbo had big advantage when all the money went in:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Qc Ad 3d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4c Kd Jd 9 9 0 31 15 0 0 0.681
Js 9s 2s Kh 0 0 9 31 0 0 0 0.319

BUT, now let's give the opponent a non-bonehead low-draw to go with the str:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Qc Ad 3d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4c Kd Jd 5 9 0 31 3 12 0 0.506
Js 4s 2s Kh 0 0 9 31 15 0 0 0.494

So we got a coinflip. This just goes to point out that the freeroll may not be as strong as you think in every instance. (This is not to say I'd play it any differently on the turn than Ribbo--certainly get as much money in the pot as possible.)

Cleveland Guy · #14 05-04-2005, 09:00 PM

and you do such a good job of teaching.

I read a couple hands on your blog - where you have random hands - but you flop the nuts, and get bet into. We all have done that, I can create my own brag threads if I want to.

Earlier tonight playing PLO high only, I had AKT9 - DS in the CO. I raise pot, get called, flop is exactly as I plan - 8QJ - rainbow, giving me 2 backdoor flush draws.

A guy opens for half pot - I raise, he calls. Turn in a 9 - giving me a flush draw, and I hit my freeroll. He bets, I raise him all in, he calls.

River is an off suit 4, and I take down against his QJxx

See how easy it is when it all works out?

Nick709 · #15 05-05-2005, 05:27 AM

If the point of this post is to show the importance of freerolls, fine. If Omaha players don't know this they are doomed.

Carl_William · #16 05-05-2005, 08:12 PM

Without reading all of the replies -- I suggest the title topic should be more appropriate as such:

"when is the nuts not profitable?"

Ribbo · #17 05-05-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I got to thinking about the low part of this hand and began wondering what would've happened if the guy had a better low draw and a low non-diamond came and Ribbo got quartered (besides his post never being made, that is)...

Well, I ran the hand on twodimes. As the cards actually fell, Ribbo had big advantage when all the money went in:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Qc Ad 3d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4c Kd Jd 9 9 0 31 15 0 0 0.681
Js 9s 2s Kh 0 0 9 31 0 0 0 0.319

BUT, now let's give the opponent a non-bonehead low-draw to go with the str:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Qc Ad 3d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4c Kd Jd 5 9 0 31 3 12 0 0.506
Js 4s 2s Kh 0 0 9 31 15 0 0 0.494

So we got a coinflip. This just goes to point out that the freeroll may not be as strong as you think in every instance. (This is not to say I'd play it any differently on the turn than Ribbo--certainly get as much money in the pot as possible.)

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the points I make on my website, is in Omaha, if you can shove every time you are at worst flipping a coin, you will make money. With the hand I held, it is extremely difficult for me to be a dog heads up as you proved. But it is very easy for my opponent to be a dog. Even if I hold a set, low draw and flush draw to his straight, im probably still flipping a coin on the river. I am always happy with the high variance of shoving coin flips, because occasionally my opponent folds instead of calling me and that's where I make my money. I should point out I only do this because I have the bankroll to do this.

Ribbo · #18 05-05-2005, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and you do such a good job of teaching.

I read a couple hands on your blog - where you have random hands - but you flop the nuts, and get bet into. We all have done that, I can create my own brag threads if I want to.

Earlier tonight playing PLO high only, I had AKT9 - DS in the CO. I raise pot, get called, flop is exactly as I plan - 8QJ - rainbow, giving me 2 backdoor flush draws.

A guy opens for half pot - I raise, he calls. Turn in a 9 - giving me a flush draw, and I hit my freeroll. He bets, I raise him all in, he calls.

River is an off suit 4, and I take down against his QJxx

See how easy it is when it all works out?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you seem to think this is about me bragging confirms my suspicions. You see the thing is, if I want to post a hand of poker, IT IS going to be a hand I was involved in , because that's the majority of poker hands I see in a week! Ones I was playing in. Because I am a good player and I do win, then the mistakes at the table are going to be from other players. This was an interesting hand, showing that a lot of Omaha players only think about their own hand and not what other people have. My opponent never considered at any point on the turn he might have had the worst hand.

Ribbo · #19 05-05-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If the point of this post is to show the importance of freerolls, fine. If Omaha players don't know this they are doomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say it's more the importance of not shoving when you don't have a freeroll, than having a freeroll. Anyone can play the nuts, it's pretty simple to get a freeroll and raise the pot. However it's the time when other players may have a freeroll over you that you need to recognise and slow down.

gergery · #20 05-05-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and you do such a good job of teaching.

I read a couple hands on your blog - where you have random hands - but you flop the nuts, and get bet into. We all have done that, I can create my own brag threads if I want to.

Earlier tonight playing PLO high only, I had AKT9 - DS in the CO. I raise pot, get called, flop is exactly as I plan - 8QJ - rainbow, giving me 2 backdoor flush draws.

A guy opens for half pot - I raise, he calls. Turn in a 9 - giving me a flush draw, and I hit my freeroll. He bets, I raise him all in, he calls.

River is an off suit 4, and I take down against his QJxx

See how easy it is when it all works out?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you seem to think this is about me bragging confirms my suspicions. You see the thing is, if I want to post a hand of poker, IT IS going to be a hand I was involved in , because that's the majority of poker hands I see in a week! Ones I was playing in. Because I am a good player and I do win, then the mistakes at the table are going to be from other players. This was an interesting hand, showing that a lot of Omaha players only think about their own hand and not what other people have. My opponent never considered at any point on the turn he might have had the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you mention your website, I'd been meaning to note that I don't agree with hand 6 on your website. your QQJJ was a good holding only because the cards you needed were not in others hands. Change just one opponents hand to something like 9TTJ and you are a signficant dog.