ATo preflop - I have no idea

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising this preflop. Getting 11-1 with your overcard and a couple of backdoor draws I think you can call this flop.

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Hmm i'm surprised to see people taking backdoor draws into consideration when raising. I never do that since I see how many players that lose on this in the long run. Do you really want to raise hoping to catch a runner runner? I guess you can call this from time to time if it's a multiway pot, you are last to act and the pot is somewhat big and will get bigger no matter what the turn card is. But raising with backdoor draws and a overcard in mind? Nah.

[Coolidge]

For me, I think I raise or muck this preflop from EP.
Anyone? Or I am I leaking.

[mvoss]

This game is 8-handed and you have a pretty good hand that plays better short handed than multiway, thus the preflop raise.

I definitely think we have enough of a hand to peel on the flop here getting 11-1. This pot is pretty big and you have nice implied odds if you hit.

Why don't you do some math and tell me why I'm wrong here instead of just typing "Good fold"?

[mvoss]

I weren't telling OP to raise the flop. I was arguing a preflop raise and a flop call. How many outs do you think we have on the flop? I think that we have enough to call getting 11-1.

[hemstock]

Don't raise this from UTG. Maybe in higher limits.
NH.

[adsman]

On the flop you have an overcard, a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight. But more importantly, you are closing the action. So take one off.

[KingOtter]

Wow... what horrible advice so far.

ATo is fine as an early limp. Didn't really want to see the raise, but calling it is fine. I would NOT raise it pre-flop, though, unless I was raising to isolate a loose limper. And then I'd want to be MP or LP.

On the flop, you do have 2 back-doors and a chance to hit your A to make a top-pair. You're getting extremely good odds... odds good enough to hit 4 outs. 2 backdoors is can count as 2.5 and the A can count as 1.5. I think a call would be fine.

Then the turn, if checked to me I might bet out thinking I could take it there, depending on how strong I may appear to be to others.

To recap:
- Don't raise this pf (unless isolating, or stealing)
- Don't fold this pf
- Don't raise the flop

Shudder... is this what Micros has come to while I've been gone?

KO

[ QUOTE ]
I weren't telling OP to raise the flop. I was arguing a preflop raise and a flop call. How many outs do you think we have on the flop? I think that we have enough to call getting 11-1.

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Yea sorry about that. I'm just tired after a whole night of playing.

Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

[mvoss]

I remember a lot of discussion about wether to raise of limp hands like ATo KQo and KJo from EP. Especially I remember some excellent posts from GrunchCan arguing a preflop raise with these hands. Unfortunately it seems that I'm not intelligent enough to find these posts using the fantastic search function, maybe some of you guys remember these posts as well? When I put what I remember together with the fact that this game is 8-handed, I'm voting for a raise with this PF. Could you please tell me why we don't want to raise PF here?

Edited to say that I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'd just really like to know why it's wrong to raise this preflop.

If you thought the ATo was worth playing, I think it would have been worth the price to raise it from EP and call the reraise if MP1 goes over the top. If MP1 reraises pre-flop and raises on the flop (assuming you check), then I'd be more sure that the villain has an overpair (or at least hit the top pair).

It might cost you two more bets (the raise and call of a reraise) to gain this information, but in the long run, it might be worth it. Otherwise, it just looks like this op could run over the table with anything.

Given the way the hand played out, the fold on the flop was a good play.