PP 50-100, donk bet defense. standard, spectacular, or spew?

Turning Stone Pro · #1 09-06-2005, 06:01 PM

PP 50-100. I am on button with Ks2s. All fold, I raise, BB calls. BB is 46/13, and has been playing rather aggressively and poorly.

Flop is 6s6c5d. BB checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn is Qc. BB bets, I raise. BB calls.

River is a 7s. He checks, I bet.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

TSP

skp · #2 09-06-2005, 06:12 PM

Well, the turn play is teh standard response to donk ebts and it's okay but obviously, it gets expensive if your read is off. One could make a case for folding, raising, or even just calling with a view to bluff raising the river.

But having raised the turn and then been called, I don't really like your river bet. Aggresive 46/13 players don't fold Ace high on the river against a preflop button steal raise. It's unlikely that he has Kx. So, just check the river and hope you are good. You would however have to bet the river if you had only Jack high instead of King high.

Fianchetto · #3 09-06-2005, 06:16 PM

I'm going to go with "spew"

I'm not too exicted about your preflop choice to play that hand against a guy that you know is going to take a flop and likely play back at you.

I'd probably fold preflop, but if I was in your shoes I think it would be best to muck the turn. It just seems you are going to burn a lot of chips to try to bluff him out of this small pot.

PokerPrince · #4 09-06-2005, 06:22 PM

What he said.

sthief09 · #5 09-06-2005, 06:31 PM

I don't understand the river bet. he has to have A high and be able to fold it. I don't give him credit for folding a pair.

also, I think this is a good flop to check. the pot is small, so giving him a free card isn't so bad. checking might also give an aggro idiot incentive to bet the turn and river with nothing. if you bet the flop he's likely calling anyway. my main reason for checking the flop is because he'll often checkraise you with absolulely nothing, and with K high and only 3 pair outs plus a BDFD you're in a tough spot. against this type, you want to see a showdown with K high and a 6 high paired board right? I think checking the flop I think checking the flop does the best job getting you there

sthief09 · #6 09-06-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the turn play is teh standard response to donk ebts and it's okay but obviously, it gets expensive if your read is off. One could make a case for folding, raising, or even just calling with a view to bluff raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you'd need to call with the intention of raising the river. as you said, aggro idiots don't just fold A high. there's no advantage to bluffing the river. for one bet you only gain if he has KQ-K3 with no pair. either he has it or he doesn't.

why not just call down on the turn? the advantage of raising is mainly that you can get him to fold a better hand. if he will call the raise, but bet the river if you just call, you gain nothing if he has a draw. if he has a 6 outer and will fold, you'd rather him bluff the river. the pot is small and his 1 BB bluff on the river will earn you more than the piece he's giving up of a 4.25 BB pot. calling avoids having to fold to the occasional semi-bluff 3-bet, or to a hand against which he has 3 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
It's unlikely that he has Kx. So, just check the river and hope you are good. You would however have to bet the river if you had only Jack high instead of King high.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the difference between K2-high and JT-high? I think he could check with J high too. it's basically the same thing.

skp · #7 09-06-2005, 06:55 PM

Checking the flop can't be the standard play here. It's a paired flop (if i remember right) meaning that the other guy probably missed and will just checkfold most of the time despite his 46/13 stats.

skp · #8 09-06-2005, 07:04 PM

When I said that he should bet with Jack high, I had forgotten that there was a Queen on board. I was speaking loosely to convey that King high was good enough for a showdown but Jack high might not have been. I should have said Ten high given the Queen on board.

Even so, there may be some Jacks that you will want to bet to fold the other guy's Jack high hands depending on the board cards which by now I have long forgotten.

sthief09 · #9 09-06-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop can't be the standard play here. It's a paired flop (if i remember right) meaning that the other guy probably missed and will just checkfold most of the time despite his 46/13 stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the board was A44, then yeah he might check-fold a lot. but on a 655 board he's going to try to take it back or peel one pretty often. also, it's not so bad if you let him have a free card. he seems like the type to bluff twice. in a nothing pot, letting him bluffing off 2 BB is much, much, much, much more profitable than trying to take the pot down.

ALL1N · #10 09-06-2005, 07:50 PM

I think that in this pot, against this player, betting the flop, checking behind on the turn, and calling a river bet is the line you want most (villain obviously screwed this up with the donkbet).

However, I think your suggestion of checking behind this flop will work brilliantly against some players. You are quite the thinker [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]