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#11
09-15-2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Basically, hands which will put money in on that turn and call the river push will probably get it in on the turn anyway, plus a bunch of hands which will fold to that river will also get it in on the turn. [/ QUOTE ] Good post. I didn't think about it from that angle during the hand. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If he plays well postflop then you aren't going to be getting much more from him when he has nothing. If he does have something, then I think you get a lot more money in by leading... [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] 
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#13
09-15-2005, 12:36 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
[ QUOTE ]
Given that he hasn't seen me make any semibluff checkraises, does that lower the likelihood of him believing a flop checkraise to be one? [/ QUOTE ] Not really to me. It would seem to me like you were picking a scary board to make a stand. Obviously the check/raise would not be 'standard'. But when you have been letting him steal pots without a fight and now all of a sudden you are betting into him on a scary board when he raised preflop that HAS to set off warning flags. This guy seems decent. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him fold to a turn bet after you check/call the flop. Or perhaps a call and then not putting in any more money. But precisely BECAUSE you wouldn't want him to fold if you had a good hand, he would expect you NOT to check/raise a monster. A flop check/raise heads up always looks to me like the guy wants me to fold. Otherwise, why would he make such an aggro move?
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#14
09-15-2005, 12:42 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Given that he hasn't seen me make any semibluff checkraises, does that lower the likelihood of him believing a flop checkraise to be one? [/ QUOTE ] Not really to me. It would seem to me like you were picking a scary board to make a stand. Obviously the check/raise would not be 'standard'. But when you have been letting him steal pots without a fight and now all of a sudden you are betting into him on a scary board when he raised preflop that HAS to set off warning flags. This guy seems decent. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him fold to a turn bet after you check/call the flop. Or perhaps a call and then not putting in any more money. But precisely BECAUSE you wouldn't want him to fold if you had a good hand, he would expect you NOT to check/raise a monster. A flop check/raise heads up always looks to me like the guy wants me to fold. Otherwise, why would he make such an aggro move? [/ QUOTE ] I see what you're saying but (to play devil's advocate) if he has some sort of suited connector or random cards that don't even beat ace-high, he certainly folds to a check/raise even if he thinks I might be semibluffing. He has to have a legitimate hand (even if its a weak one) to continue against my perceived semibluff. On the other hand, he might put more money in on the turn even with those terrible hands as a 2nd barrel bluff. Anyway, checkraising the flop is probably a quality +EV play here for the reasons you've stated; I'm just pointing out a potential downside.
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#15
09-15-2005, 12:49 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
why not check raise the turn? i think it gets more money in. esp since we check/called flop. To lead the the turn after the check call is to show alot of strength, which we don't necessarily want to do, and if you knew that villian was going to bet turn why not consider a check raise all in on the turn?
that river is absolute death.
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#16
09-15-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
[ QUOTE ]
why not check raise the turn? i think it gets more money in. esp since we check/called flop. To lead the the turn after the check call is to show alot of strength, which we don't necessarily want to do, and if you knew that villian was going to bet turn why not consider a check raise all in on the turn? that river is absolute death. [/ QUOTE ] Check/call flop, check/raise turn is an even bigger sign of strength than check/call flop, lead turn except that it gets more money into the pot. I was hoping he made a flush and would value bet it again on the river. When the river double paired the board, I didn't think there was any chance of him betting anything but QQ there but maybe he'd call with the flush. I don't claim that to be optimal thinking; its just what was going through my head at the time.
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#17
09-15-2005, 01:18 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
oh i don't claim to have optimal thinking at any point.
could he think you're representing the flush? When he actually has it? Like you're trying to push off an 8? Am i retarded? Will our hero save this pot and pull off a monster? We'll have to wait til next time....
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#18
09-15-2005, 01:25 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
I agree with this. Check/call, check/raise shows way too much strength and will get him to fold. But as I said before, it doesn't matter WHAT he has if you check/raise the flop and he reads it as weakness. He is fairly aggro, apparently, and if he truly reads your check/raise as weakness he will either push over the top of it on the flop or will call in order to bluff the turn all-in when you weak-lead it (which you will). And that way you bloat the pot on the flop which makes it worth fighting for.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying this is THE best line every time. I'm just saying that in THIS PARTICULAR situation where: 1. He's aggressive 2. He's pretty good 3. He's been running you over 4. The board is very draw heavy 5. The board is paired so it is a prime situation for you to try to get a good preflop hand to fold I think it is a good time to make this move. I'm just saying that when I read the OP I immediatly said 'Wow! The stars are aligned PERFECTLY for a 'weak' check/raise on this flop!"
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#19
09-15-2005, 02:07 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
I like check/call, check/raise for this type of LAG. Maybe you'll make less when he has something but if hes the type to make a two barrel bluff, you'll make more on average letting him bluff. I hate check/raising this flop.
How about reraising preflop out of the SB? He should be giving you a lot of credit from your previous encounters.
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#20
09-15-2005, 02:16 PM
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Re: I don\'t like my line here (2/4 6-max)
Check-call, check-raise turn. You make the most out of him if he's trying to fire two barrels with missed overs, or a low pocket, as he's probably not calling most river bets with A-high. He's also definitely going to call your check-raise with the flush, and definitely calling a value bet on the river, maybe even a push. If he has any 8 he's also calling.
I just don't see him calling the river push, but could be calling a check-raise on the turn with an overpair or a lone Ad, especially if you give him odds. Actually, if he doesn't usually fire two barrels (I don't know many decent LAGs that do, especially on such a scary board), I like check-call, lead turn for 1/2 pot better. He's either got something or he doesn't, and 1/2 pot will entice an overpair with a diamond, or any high diamond, really. And he will definitely raise you with the flush or any 8.
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