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  #1  
Old 08-26-2004, 08:18 PM
The Gift Of Gab The Gift Of Gab is offline
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Location: Berkeley, CA
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Default Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

I was playing a tighter and less aggressive game back then, and I vaguely remember having to fold some big hands on the river after pushing them hard earlier. I have about $1500 and my main opponent covers.

One limper and the SB come in, I raise the pot with KJ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]QT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and both call.

Flop ($117) Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet the pot, limper calls, and SB drops. The limper seemed decent and very aggressive, though I can't remember who it was.

Turn ($351) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, limper bets the pot, and I raise all-in for about 1400. He folds instantly.
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2004, 10:39 PM
LA_Price LA_Price is offline
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Default Re: Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

I like your play on all streets. You've even got free roll outs on another KJ.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2004, 11:08 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

I probably don't raise out of the BB for all the reasons I've bored you with b4...although maybe just make it 30 bucks sometimes.

Flop i bet of course, although as per my style, prob less than pot.

The turn is difficult. And is really player dependent. Even a LAG may give a free card to the check, which may make you ill. He probably doesn't have a premium draw - he would have raised you on the flop. The problem I have with your play is that you basically tell him you have the nuts. Unless he has a monster draw - again unlikely based on the flop action - he will pass. He may even pass J8 here. On balance I prefer a str8 bet here, maybe even a scared feeler looking bet. This (a) charges him to draw to an 8 flush or the like (b) may provoke him to reraise with two pair or J8 (c) balances your strategy where you are not leaking information by continually betting.

However your play does have the advantage of maybe picking up a dead $350 bucks - dead because if he bets, he will almost certainly pass the reraise.

However I still bet.

gl

dd
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2004, 03:05 AM
The Gift Of Gab The Gift Of Gab is offline
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Default Re: Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

My default is certainly to bet the turn, but I think it's important to make a play like this occasionally to fight back against an aggressive player with position.

I agree that this line may not make the most money and that it's pretty sick if I blast him off J8. But if I never checkraise the turn in spots like this it's too easy for him to semibluff with a flush draw. He has to fear being shut out some of the time.

How about this twisted line: check-call the turn and on the river check-fold if the flush hits, check-call if the board pairs, and, of course, check-raise all-in if I still have the nuts.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2004, 06:18 AM
crockpot crockpot is offline
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Default Re: Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

i don't like this play unless you know the opponent is very aggressive. it gains only when the opponent has a flush draw, misses, and bets both the turn and river, or if he has J8 and passes your check-raise. meanwhile, it loses whenever:

- the opponent checks behind on the river, which he will very likely do with QT and often with a set
- the opponent hits his flush on the river with the cheap card you gave him, when he would have folded to the turn check-raise or bet
- the opponent fills on the river and you automatically call him
- the opponent bluffs you out after a third suited card hits
- the opponent has KJ also and doesn't pay you off on the river if you fill up

add this all up, and i think your best play is to get all the money in now if you have the chance. this removes his positional advantage and all betting leverage the drawing hand has on the river.

as for the check-raise vs. betting, i like check-raising most of the time here. you'll often be betting the flop with no hand, so you can't let them know they can automatically steal from you on fourth street after you check.
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  #6  
Old 08-27-2004, 02:04 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Here\'s one from a few weeks ago

I kinda like the second play you gave. Its a big risk, but some of the guys in that game will bet to the end v thin. It would be a good variance play. I am still unfond of the c-r although I have noticed that c-r is more of your style. The problem with it is you probably do want your foes to call sometimes when you make them pass, and if your are (semi) bluffing then a check raise can be a dear do :-)

Also I strongly disagree with crockpot, you will not be betting the pot mostly with nothing and then checking the turn, therefore making a check raise with the nuts a good balance play a la Sklansky holdem. Mostly you will be betting here with something and continuing on the turn, because in the Stars game it would be very dangerous to bet a "missed" flop. Because you will be raised. Which is also another reason why to range on a wide range of hands. And not raise UTG :-) See u in the game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dave
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