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  #1  
Old 08-03-2004, 06:18 AM
JTG51 JTG51 is offline
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Default Reasonable spot to bluff?

.50/1 PLO. To start the hand, I have $200+ and my opponent has about $100. I don't know much about him.

EP, MP, and LP limp. I limp on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB folds and the BB calls. Six to the flop.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Everyone checks to me and I bet the pot, about $6. All fold to MP who calls.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I check.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet the pot.

What do you think of my play on each street? Is this a raise preflop? Good spot to bluff on the river?
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  #2  
Old 08-03-2004, 06:51 AM
greywolf greywolf is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

when you checked the turn on a very dangerous board i think you should give up any thoughts on representing a boat on the river it doesnt make sense, of course maybe youre opponent were on some sort of draw himself and is to dumb to realize that you are likely bluffing then go ahead and make a bet, i would consider making a slighly underbet( 4/5 of the pot) as i often do to give myself better odds. If you often play the same opponents , remember to do this sometimes when you arent bluffing so you dont become to easy to read.
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  #3  
Old 08-03-2004, 06:51 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

If he's a thinking player, he may well put you on a busted draw bluff - after all, why do you check the turn when an effective blank comes if you have a made hand? On the other hand, there's a pretty good chance he was on a draw too and has very little to call you, with especially as he's not only checked three times but also when you've shown serious weakness on the turn, so it's worth giving it a go; perhaps not a full pot be though. I might bet the turn here. A good player may well call/raise you here with not very much.
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  #4  
Old 08-03-2004, 07:14 AM
sahaguje sahaguje is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

Hi,

Some thoughts about your play :

Preflop : raise. You have the best position, a pretty good hand, and you have to vary you raises preflop. Unless you have a tell someone will limp reraise (but I guess it is an online hand), raise. You have a big stack compared to your opponents, you have to use it.

Flop : OK.

Turn : I disagree with your play. You should bet, at least 50% of the pot. You are basically telling your opponent : I am on a draw. He is weak : he check called on the flop, and checked on fourth street. Play your opponent, not your cards : bet.

River : I dont like your play here neither. On the turn, you said, "i Am on a draw". Unless the other player is very bad, he will bet with any busted draw on the river. If he checks, there is a good chance he has not much, but want to induce a bluff from you. Check and muck, unless you have a read your opponent is a relly deep weak-tight idiot.

Very intersting hand, though. Dont forget to play your opponent, and dont forget he also sometimes thinks about what you have. Here on the river he basically knows what you are doing ; he knows you are on a draw, and missed. If he did not bet, there is a reason. He wants you to bluff.

See you

sahaguje
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  #5  
Old 08-03-2004, 11:03 AM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

This 9 on the river just makes it more obvious why you should have bet the turn -- you gave up your representing privileges. He would have had trouble calling you with any kind of "made" hand like 2 pair -- and if he called with a draw, he was drawing pretty thin, since a lot of his "outs" give you a nut hand, he had no implied odds, and any blank (particularly one that paired the board), and you easily steal the pot.

If he is a good player, the only hands he will fold on the river here are hands that are probably behind anyway (and maybe a 3, 6, or the like -- though I've seen calls with less).
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  #6  
Old 08-03-2004, 12:18 PM
Zag Zag is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

I want to disagree with some of the others. I think this is a reasonable play on one condition: if this is the same betting pattern that you would have used with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] j[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] j[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Both of these hands would have flopped top two pair and a decent draw, but not a great one. I know that, given position and these hands, I would exactly have bet the flop but checked behind on the turn.

With top two, I want to get to a cheap showdown, if I can, and perhaps induce a bluff on the river. On the turn, especially, I don't want to get blown out by a big check-raise, because I do have outs even if I am behind, but I don't have enough to call a raise.

I guess I am puzzled that you all feel no one would put you on a hand like this. I would expect all the two-pair hands against you to assume that I have at least a 9, and to fold to the river bet.

On the other hand, I don't disagree too strongly with a turn bet, here, either. But the problem is that, if you are called, you really don't want to fire another barrel on the end when you miss. After all, there really aren't that many reasonable draws that would be calling you, because you hold the best draw. Therefore, calls on the flop AND the turn would mean a made hand of some sort, and you might just be blasting off extra chips on the river. But if he WAS calling with some sort of a draw, you definitely want to bet, since you lose to any stray kicker hitting a pair.

Bottom line: I like the way you played it. You still will get called by anyone with a 9, probably, but someone with just a Q or a 6 will fold.
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  #7  
Old 08-03-2004, 12:47 PM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

I say bet both of those hands on the turn as well.
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  #8  
Old 08-03-2004, 04:16 PM
sherbert sherbert is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

OK, here's my 2p's worth. Sahaguje recommends raising before the flop. I think you can wait for a better hand - a big pair or better connected cards would do.

But: if you had raised preflop, then I think the semi-bluff bet on the flop becomes far better. As it is, this is Party; in an unraised pot, you will almost certainly get callers, and then where are you? There are six players (!) to the flop. For your bet to be worthwhile, there must be a percentage of time when ALL the players fold. That will happen, heh, less than 1% I'd guess on Party.

You will get one or more callers, and also face the prospect of a CR.

A second nut flush with an extra three outs from your gutshot (and 3 Kings if a caller has just TP no kicker) may not offer much value here.

Why not take the free card. If it's checked on the turn, you still don't have the value to bet.

Having reached the river with just the one caller, sometimes I might bet if I had strong enough a read on the player. You can represent the nine I think, as it would be "natural" to other players for your to bet second pair on the flop. But more often I'd wimp out.

Bottom 2 or middle pair are just the hands that Party players will call you down with. They will (nearly) always put you on a button bluff when you bet the flop and will call you in an instant on the river with next to nothing - but that next to nothing beats yours.

I think Pete was right, in that checking the turn meant you gave up representing rights. So betting the river now becomes more suspicious. Of course, you might get a player with TP to fold.

Overall, I think there are better situations to bluff. Think about blockers for example.

JMO.

Cheers.
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  #9  
Old 08-03-2004, 04:22 PM
sherbert sherbert is offline
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Default Re: Reasonable spot to bluff?

Hi Zag,

If you have top two, you cannot afford to let another player off on the turn by checking it - especially if you have a draw to go with it, no matter how weak.

You are giving up way too much and also have no way of knowing what to do on the river if the OP now springs a potsized bet at you - especially if it is an innocuous looking card.

Betting is compulsory with the hand you describe. There's almost no two ways about it.

JMO

Cheers,

Sherbert.
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  #10  
Old 08-03-2004, 04:54 PM
JTG51 JTG51 is offline
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Default Results and thoughts

Maybe I should have mentioned that this hand wasn't on Party, it was on Stars. The players in that game are typically fairly tight and very straight forward. When they check, they have nothing. That may have made a difference in some of the responses.

Flop: When everyone checks, I think there's actually a pretty good chance I'll win the pot with a bet in this game. LP's check call looked to me like a draw or a really weak hand like just a Q that he's taking one card off with.

Turn: I think I agree with those of you that said I should bet. I was going to, but I didn't want to get called again by a draw then have to decide if I should fire another barrel at the river to make a hand like JT88 fold. That's probably a poor reason, but that's what I was thinking.

River: I think many of you are giving him way too much credit. The average player in this game won't even notice that my bet looks suspicious, nevermind try to do anything about it. I'll occasionally get called by just a Q, but I don't think he's ever going to check raise bluff me.

Anyway, I bet and he folded, so we'll never know what he had.

I'm going to keep posting these hands. I've learned a ton from the last two or three hands that I've posted here. Thanks.
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