Gambling with the jank

David Ottosen · #1 12-28-2002, 01:17 AM

I'm playing 4-8, but this hand happens to be a kill pot, so it's 8-16.

I am the BB and receive the nut low A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] for my $4 BB. The first two fold, and as expected the killer raises to 16. The killer is a loose fish who always open raises his kill if given the chance. He has been the killer for 3 consecutive hands at the moment.

Anyhoo, it's folded to me and I call.

The flop is Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

I check and call.

Turn is A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I check and call.

River is 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I check and call.

Thoughts on this hand?

David Ottosen · #2 12-28-2002, 01:23 AM

So, I make a weak call preflop. I had been planning to reraise him but ducked out at the last second. This was a mistake.

The flop is certainly bettable for me, yes. However, it may be an even stronger move to wait for the turn to checkraise his expected any 2 cards and force him to put in another 1.5BB before dropping the hand (if he has the assumed nothing).

The turn is eminently checkraisable and this was my original plan. However, now my hand has improved from strong to the probable near nuts. If he doesn't have an ace, he's probably drawing to <5 outs to win this hand. If he does have an ace, I'm going to need help obviously. I decide to let him see the river and try to extract just one more bluff out of him. If the river spikes me (diamond) I am going to bet, otherwise, I'll just check-call as I'm worried about getting into the 2 for 1 situation.

On the river, with which I was happy as I can now tie with most semi-large aces, I check-call and lose to the 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] .

I wasn't sure afterwards if I played it well or not. I certainly played it differently than usual.

Jeffage · #3 12-28-2002, 03:50 PM

First of all, I think your preflop call is really bad here in a kill pot when you have to call $12 additional dollars out of position. I would surrender my BB here no questions asked. But let's discuss the postflop play. I would check call the flop as you did, but the turn and river play is more interesting to me. If you checkraise the turn, will your opponent pay you off with less than an ace (many maniacs play well postflop)...if he will, go ahead and checkraise...u may be ahead and if behind you have outs. If not, I may just call the turn and then bet the river (maybe even smoke it). The board pairing protects you from anything but AK or AQ which is seeming steal raise preflop seems to lessen the chance of. Plus this odd bet may get a call rom something like JJ which u beat.

Jeff

skp · #4 12-28-2002, 07:07 PM

You should not approach the problem with the view that it's going to cost you $12 to play. Well, that's not entirely correct. Perhaps, I am phrasing it poorly. What I mean is that it seems to me that you might call this loose aggressive "raise with any two cards" dude if it was a regular pot but feel compelled to fold solely because it's a kill pot and it now costs 12 bucks to call rather than 4. In reality, the fact that it is a kill pot makes it more likely that the preflop raise by the killer is made on a substandard hand.

That's not to say that I endorse calling with A2. I think it's a very questionable call but I would say the same thing even if it was a regular pot instead of a kill pot.

Incidentally, my reluctance to call is not necessarily because I am worried about kicker problems. For example, I would feel a lot better calling with A8 or A7 not because I now think that my kicker is better but because now, flopping a pair of 7s with A7 may get him in trouble rather than getting me in trouble when I flop a pair of deuces with A2.

PokerPrince · #5 12-29-2002, 08:51 AM

I wouldn't wipe my ass with an A2o letalone call a raise with it. Pick a better spot to take the fish out. This isn't the time.

PokerPrince

Yerma · #6 12-29-2002, 01:36 PM

Listen, you are embarassing yourself with your own poker 'advice'. Wouldn't wipe your ass with A2? That's right it's too good for the likes of you! An ace is *huge* here and he should reraise preflop 100% of the time.

PokerPrince · #7 12-29-2002, 02:20 PM

Here fishy fishy fishy.

PokerPrince

David Ottosen · #8 12-29-2002, 04:08 PM

This isn't the time? When will be the "time"? What is your minimum hand required to defend your BB here?

You need to study some game theory and realize that if you set your defense point too high, the other player can show immediate profit by raising in this spot every time. In this case, he is risking 16 to win 6. For my part, I'm risking 12 to win 22. Therefore, I should be playing if my hand can win ~1/3 of the time or better. Do you think A2o is not going to win 1/3 of the time against two random cards?

You might want to consider taking up chess, where each decision is clearly right or wrong every time. In poker, there are other variables to consider than simply "duh, what is my hand?". In this case, you have a player raising essentially blind and the chance to play heads up and thereby limit your exposure to one bet on every street, which will lessen the impact of being out of position to some extent.

Yes, I'd like to have AA here too, but sorry, those hands don't come along every orbit for me. Thanks for your insightful commentary however.

bernie · #9 12-29-2002, 04:53 PM

preflop...

marginal(between raising and calling against this player)....but you dont have to raise to get it HU, so a call is ok...ill give you credit on reading the player so you likely have him beat preflop....nice player to go against with A2 i think you picked a good spot...he established a pattern, it's time to extract...

postflop

i may have raised either the flop or turn...depends on how you think hed react...you wouldnt mind him folding either really, since you dont have a hand yet...but, it is HU, and he is an idiot...if i caught more than the flush draw i may have been more likely to call down and raise the river, letting him blow chips to me...

so that's about the only difference i see...id have popped it somewhere post flop...but not necesarily preflop...

i think if you had players to act behind you preflop, THEN it's a more raise/fold spot to be, and id want a little better hand. and if they played tight behind me, id likely raise....

b

David Ottosen · #10 12-29-2002, 09:54 PM

I would be very unlikely to call a regular open raise with this hand. My call is primarily based on the fact that this player will open raise his kill with any two.