Overplayed, unlucky, or both?

[shaniac]

10/20 Hold 'Em table. 70% loose, weak, passive, 20% loose aggresive, 10% tight aggresive.

I call a button raise in the big blind with A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

The raiser is not a moron but will make this play with a wide range of less-than-premium hands.

We see the flop three ways. It comes down J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] giving me bottom pair/top kicker and 9 outs to the nut flush. I bet. The third player in the hand raises. This player is totally wild and will raise almost any draw and almost any pair. The button re-raises and I cap it. Third player calls.

$185 in the pot.

Turn is the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] giving me Aces-Up to go along with my nut flush draw. Again, I bet. third player drops. Button raises. I flat call.

$265 in the pot.

River is the Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] for a final board of J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] .

I check call and get show Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] for a rivered full house.

Would love to hear what I could have/should have done differently.

thanks,
shaniac

[Ed Miller]

I would have 3-bet the turn. You beat any flopped two pair... and you have 9 outs to the nuts (barring a straight flush), 2 more outs to Aces full, and 2 more outs to a boat (in case you are against KT).

I think you can actually consider folding when the Q comes... there is basically no hand that the button could reasonably play the way that he did that does not beat you now.

EDIT: I take it back... I forgot that the button raised preflop. In that case, the range of hands he would raise the turn with here has you behind, and you should call, not 3-bet.

[shaniac]

Precisely. I flat called the raise because I feared A-Q or A-J.

shaniac

[astroglide]

i would have called the 3bet on the flop, and 3bet the turn

[J.A.Sucker]

Your preflop call was easy; you are getting very nice odds to see the flop. With 3 players, you should call Axs from the BB against ANY raiser.

You are saying that the button "would make this play with a wide range of less-than-premium hands." What play is this? There's a limper in the pot and he has the button. Where is the limper? If it's late position or a weak player, a good player will make this play with many hands, QJ is surely a worthy hand for this. At first I thought the button was stealing, but the fact that there's a 3rd player really changes things. You need to give him credit for some sort of a hand, though he hardly needs a monster.

On the flop, you've gotta love your hand, as you did. The cap was good. However, you need to think about what kind of hands the button may have. Possible candidates are either suited connectors (clubs, which you like a lot), an overpair, or broadway cards. This is key to the remainder of the hand.

Turn: 3 bet here. He's either got 2 pair, which he probably flopped (QJ), or he has a hand like KT, and is now beating you, though you have many outs, or a set. You really have 2 pair hands drawing almost dead, and if you are behind, you can catch up often.

River: Check and call is fine. I just can't fold a pot this big when there was any sort of draw on the flop, though you are gonna be beaten here almost every time. Note that 3 betting the turn wouldn't have gotten him to fold, it is to extract $ when you have the best of it. This is just one of those hands that he played well (he couldn't get away from it at any time) and he wound up with the best hand. It's like AA vs KK preflop - on the turn, it was like you had AA, but sometimes those lower pocket pairs end up winning. It's not like he can dump the hand. Hang in there.

These are just my opinions, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[andyfox]

When button 3-bets the flop, the range of hands I would put him on includes Q-Q, J-J, 6-6, Q-J, A-Q, K-Q, K-T, K-K and A-A as the most likely suspects. Since I'm out of position, and have just one pair, and could be in for a big loss if I catch an Ace if he has Q-Q, J-J, 6-6, K-T or A-A, I'd probably just call the 3-bet. I realize the player in the middle is wildish, but I still don't want to risk losing him drawing to the nuts.

Now when he raises on the turn, K-Q and K-K seem out of the question, leaving only hands that have me beat. When a Q comes on the river, seems like a good time to save $20 for a fruit plate.

[Josh W]

Andy -

In almost all situations in poker, when we've been actively involved in a hand,
we can dream up some hand that we are ahead of. The question, on the river, becomes,
is the pot large enough to merit a call?

After the button 3-bets the flop, we put him on the same range of hands. Note that this includes
hands that, on the river, we beat.

All that we know about the button is that he is NOT passive. Have you ever threebet from the button with second pair
(i.e. AJ or KJ in this situation?). I know that I have, maybe too much...especially after raising preflop.

And, what about KK?

The problem with what you think I'm about to say, is, of course, if he has these hands, why the turn raise?

The move that was fairly ingenious 12 months ago is becoming routine at many games....raise the turn
with position if you are committed to call your opponent down. Granted a good player won't feel committed
to call down in this situation with KJ or KK, but they certainly can't fold on the turn in what is turning out
to be a very large pots (capped action creates those, ya know [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ). And, to my way of thinking, there is a
good enough chance that he's raising the turn, hoping for a free showdown. Of course, he'd be a fool to bet
river with KJ or KK, of course.

But, when you throw in the additional chance that he may have a flush draw or a missed straight draw (T9,
AT, or such), I think I have to call the river bet, as I'd be getting something like 14:1 or 15:1 (the original poster
never says outright how many people saw the flop).

...
...
...

And this is coming from somebody who dearly likes watermelon!!

Josh W

[mikelow]

Never a better time to go for the fruitplate. The second queen counterfeits his hand. A clear-cut (but rare) river fold.

[Noo Yawk]

I think you played this hand just fine.

[sleepyjoe]

I think you did exactly what you were supposed to do on this hand: lose a pretty decent sized pot. Now say some curse word under your breath, yell at the cocktail waitress for no apparent reason, tell the floor you want a table change, and get right back in there.