Preflop Play of QJo

[Jim Brier]

I need some help resolving a conflict I am having with a friend of mine concerning the preflop play of queen-jack offsuit. Suppose you are in a full-tabled $20-$40 hold'em game. The game is loose with about 4-5 players taking a flop on the average. However, most of the pots are not getting raised.

You are in middle position with queen-jack offsuit. Three players limp in ahead of you. What do you do?

Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average?

[M.B.E.]

I would call. In this type of game, when the flop comes queen- or jack-high your QJ will be good often enough to get positive expectation. That's my current belief, anyway; I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

<font color="purple">Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average? </font color>

In the loose game I'd also call in late position.

In a tight game if three players limp ahead of me then QJo should be folded. Now the chance is too high that someone has KQ and/or AJ (perhaps KJs).

[mikelow]

In the loose-passive situation you describe, I would just call and see who comes in behind me. QJoff is ok to play in this game, but I don't want to raise when I won't have position over everyone.

In a late position, I would raise as it will be easier to get a free flop, if need be. Also, in a late postion I will have more control over the hand.

In a tight game, I would fold QJoff preflop unless in a late position, where I could pick up the blinds.

[J.A.Sucker]

I'd call with QJo in loose, passive games like you describe at first. In LP, I'd consider raising, but would be more inclined to limp. In both of situations, I think you could raise if you think that most of the remaining players behind you will fold. This may be the case, if you are seen as a player who plays tight preflop.

In tight games, I would either fold (majority of the time), but in a very tight game, I would raise first in (sometimes) to try to steal the blinds. This can be done UTG in some games, and is worth a shot, IMO, when everybody is very tight. If you get called or 3 bet, then you have to play very defensively, but I think that in these games, KQo and AJo will usually be folded by players behind you, and the chances of being dominated are small, so it's not so bad.

These are just my ideas, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[skp]

I agree

[David Sklansky]

You better play a lot better than your opponents to expect to make money with this hand outside of late positions. However it is OK to play it earlier, even if it figures to only break even, if you are trying to avoid a tight image.

[sleepyjoe]

I don't think this hand has a positive expectation. Why not wait until you find a hand that could at least be the nuts, like a suited ace or a small pocket pair? If I'm going speculating, I want to know that when I make a hand it's gonna be good. Unless you get AK10 or K109 you'll never be safe.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Jim,
I agree with most of the other posters that it's ok to limp with QJo in a loose game, so long as the limpers are poor players, and you are at the later spectrum of mid position. As David points out, I only like this hand if I can out play my opponents. In a tougher game, this hand is a routine muck.

[Huh]

Haven't heard anyone say it yet, so I am ready to get slammed, but here goes. If I've seen the limpers in with trash or they are the type of people who like any two suited cards...

"Raise it up!"

I think the benefits are...
-You are wrecking the implied odds of smaller suited cards
-You very well might have the biggest cards.
-You may get a better hand to fold behind you.
-You may get a little post-flop leverage/respect

Cons
-If you are playing with limp/re-raisers you may get trapped.
-If people see you raise with these types of hands too often, they might start liberally three-betting you (which may not be a bad thing).
-You are building a pot and may be giving people correct odds to draw post-flop (Although I really don't like this argument).

What hands could the limpers have where a raise would really hurt you?
I count AK, AQ, AJ, KQ . And many players will raise AK AQ AJ, so their probability can be somewhat reduced.

What hands do you have to worry about behind you?
AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KK, QQ, JJ. And of those you might get KQ or AJ to fold.

In my defense, I just got done playing in a $7.50-$15.00 game where early players were frequently limping in with 89o, Q2s, and even 23s. The last thing I wanted to do was to let them see a flop cheaply when I had any two off-suit cards above a jack. I figured I would win more than my fair-share of pots, and it was easier to get these people to compound mistakes pre-flop.

Okay...Go ahead and shoot holes in my logic.

Huh?

[Boris]

I agree