Two Hands for Review

[LuvDemNutz]

I'm pretty new to playing no limit so go easy on me. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Both these hands are at a live($300 max buy in) $2/$5 NL 10 person table at a local card club. Most players are pretty loose and pretty passive.

No real reads on either opponent in the hands below.

HAND 1

UTG limps (has about $200), folded to me in MP2 I raise to $25 with AsKs (I have about $250). All fold back to UTG who calls.

Flop - Ac Ad 3c

UTG checks, I check.

Turn - 5d

UTG bets $25, I make it $75 to go. UTG calls relatively quickly.

River - 7h

UTG bets $75, I call.

HAND 2

I'm in MP with AJo (I've got $180). One limper in front of me, I make it $20 to go. Button ($300) calls. Limper folds.

Flop AJ3r.

I check, button checks.

Turn 9 - I bet $20, button raises to $40. I push...

Thoughts?

[Cornell Fiji]

I think you are getting way too tricky. A check is often percieved as being stronger as a bet (except, of course, when it is weak) plus you allow draws to catch up and keep the pot small. You have a strong case of FPS (fancy play syndrome) that, if left untreated, will cause you to leave a lot of money on the table.

(note an argument can be made for some people checking both of these flops, my gut tells me however that you are getting too tricky for your own good and should bet)

Hand 1:
Bet the flop. You are ahead of everything except for 33, A3 here and will willingly stack off to either. Futhermore at these stakes it is extrtremely rare that someoene will fold any ace to you. Your preflop bet will raise the possibiity that you have a high pp but if you check the flop and then raise the turn a good player will have you squarely on AK.

Turn- You are forced to raise to build the pot. This gives away the stregnth of your hand. My advice for the turn is to bet the flop.
River- His bet comes off as a blocking bet to me. I would probably push not expecting to be called but not surprised if AQ/AJ just couldnt lay his hand down either. If im against a boat I rebuy, with stacks that are only 40bbs there is realy no other options IMO.

Hand 2:
Bet the flop ($25-$40, i like 25), if you make a lot of money in this hand it will be from playing fast against AK, AQ, A3s. You may get a call on the flop from KJ. YOU NEED TO BUILD A POT! (then bet $60 on the turn, all in on the river)

The way your hand played out, i guess call his turn raise and lead out for $50 or check raise him all in if you think he will bet. By checking the flop and going all in on the turn a thinking opponent will have you on AJ or a set.


Your two hands were playing for 40BBs and 36BBs. You might be better off posting in small stakes

-Steve

[LuvDemNutz]

Fiji,

For Hand 1 - would you bet $30-$40 or so on the flop and then push on the turn if opponent called the flop and checked the turn?

So basically you don't think I should have slowplayed in either situation - is there a particular situation or set of circumstances that you do advocate slowplaying?

By the way, I'm Cornell alum '97 - you walk up Libe Slope recently? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[NickPoker]

Hand 1 - I wouldn't slow play this hand because it will look suspicious later when you raise, and there is a club draw. After you did slow play it I thought your turn play was appropriate. I would have probably raised the river bet, and if I lost to a full house curse myself for not betting the flop. With all that being said, to give a better answer I would need to know more about your opponent, if I was playing against a "rock" I would slow down a bit. If I was playing against a mediocre to weak player I would probably push (they may have fallen for your slow play trick).

Hand 2: Never slow play a 2 pair, it is to easy to counterfiet I would have made a pot sized bet on the flop. Your turn play was fine, I would be suprised if you are losing at this point. I guess there is the chance of a set, but I would probably have to pay that off. I am not sure I would push though, that may make it too hard for hand you are beating to call you, I would make a good size raise though.

Generally you should rarely slow play, unless you have a real monster, and want people to catch up. (ie. Top full, 4 of a kind, etc.)

[Cornell Fiji]

When the flop comes down, before you act, do you plan your actions for all streets (Ie, I am going to bet 30, if the turn blanks bet 50, if the river blanks bet 120 or im going to bet 30, if I hit a K on the turn push all in, or whatever...)? I get the feeling that you don't do this and it is fundemental IMO to being a good poker player.

When I am dealt two cards I have a loose plan for how I will play every street depending on certain flops, turns, rivers, and opponent actions and stack sizes. This is an extremely important habit to get into.

To your question. AA3r flop, opponent has $200 in chips. 30-50-120 gets him all in and gives him little opportunity t fold (against the typical avg/bad opponent with this line i would think that if he calls the flop he will rationalize calling the turn nearly 90% of the time, if he calls the turn he will rationalize calling the river 75%+ of the time and you get all his money) Your line made it way too easy to get off of his hand.

Another line I like is 35-60-105, if you can get him for that first bet here then you can probably string him along the whole way.


There are some times when a slowplay is correct, however it is much better to underuse this play than to overuse it. I believe that an extremely common mistake is FPS: slowplaying too much, check raising too much, etc. I rarely will slowplay EARLY in a NL hold'em hand, if I am going to slowplay it will be when I hit a straight or flush on the turn or river and think my opponet will bet. Slowplaying on the flop keeps the pot small and is rarely worth it.

One of the main reasons for my aversion to slowplaying might be because when I first learned the game I played PL. Thus the concept of building the pot with my big hands in order to get paid off was ingrained into me. Another important reason not to slowplay is because when a scare card pops off the deck, the villain will either beat you or be scared by it, with less money invested he will just fold when he is scared (conversely I have seen many people overbet the pot on a scare card when the pot is large, especially if it puts a 3 flush out on the turn and they dont have any cards of that suit - the same card can produce opposite reactions when the pot size is large or small.)

I am coming up with this example off of the top of my head, I am sure that a better one could be formulated so bear with me:

Imagine you are playing in a 5/5 NL game with $1000 behind and the villain has you covered and you hold 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in EP you limp in and the button raises to 25, everyone folds and you call

the flop ($55) is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Now the hands that the villain could hold that will make you the most money are AK, AQ, AJ(to some extent), A9s, KK-TT, A2s, 22

With no draws out many people are tempted to slowplay this hand, lets see a typical line with slowplaying if the villain holds AK (the best hand he could have for your purpose other than 22)

Flop: You check, he bets 50, you raise to 150 WOAH!!!! he is thinking 2 pair or a set, he is scared!

or

Flop: You check, he bets 50, you call
Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] You bet 150 (WARNING BELLS! The stop and go is a strong play! he is nervous!)

or

Flop: You check, He checks (also slowplaying)
Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
You bet 50, he raises to 150, (concerbed about a backdoor spade draw -- if you rereraise he will fold,) you call
River: If you check he will check, so you bet 250 and he will call 66% of the time...

HOWEVER...

Ciaffone says in his book on PL and NL that 'if you bet you can have anything' this is key!

so you have 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

the flop ($55) is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You bet 50, Villain calls (he puts you on a weak ace most likely, with no draws out he wants to keep you around)

Turn ($155) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
You bet 150, because you are betting and thus can have any two cards villain should think that his hand is good. He probably is a little concerned about a backdoor flush draw so raises you to 450. You can now either push or call/push but look at how much more money is in the pot because you built the pot from the flop!

Play out these hands with him holding the other cards he might have, try to see what betting pattern makes you more money.


I am having a lot of trouble thinking of a time I would slowplay the flop. I slowplay a lot more in my homegames than in a casino because the opponents know me and therefore I need to mix up my game a lot more. I slowplay in homegames because I want my opponents to fear my check and not exploit it. I would never slowplay the flop in early position in a casino as a way to make profit on that particular hand... Maybe if we are short handed late in the night I will slowplay, forgoing profit on that hand, as a method of mixing things up. I am one of the few people who does NOT slowplay quads. I have always felt that if you bet out on a tripped up flop then your opponets will put you on anyting BUT the quads. I will slowplay a flopped overfull 1/2 the time but also like betting this to build the pot. I would definitely bet out with a royal flush (its going to check around anyway) but would probably slowplay a lower straight flush...

It is my oppinion that the money that you are leaving on the table by slowplaying far outweighs the money that you are picking up. If I were you I would do the following drill. Dont slowplay the flop for an entire month. This will break you out of your bad habit and will show you the great advantages of fastplaying big hands. If you decide to try this out please make sure to get back to us with your results, I would bet a large sum that they will be positive.


(I walk up the slope every day, and damn is it cold)

Hope this helps

-Steve

[LuvDemNutz]

Hand 1 - villain had 77 for the rivered boat

Hand 2 - villain had 99 for the turned trips

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - villain had 77 for the rivered boat

Hand 2 - villain had 99 for the turned trips

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet the flop on either hand you win...

Try a month without slowplaying... I bet you will have positive results

[Kaz The Original]

Before I read the results on the second one I thought to myself... I hope villian has 99.

Just bet the flop... DO IT.

[TStoneMBD]

push allin on hand 1. any player less than very solid will make the crying call. hand 2: you need to play your hands a little bit faster. your pots will never be big if you trap to the river. granted, its good to trap now and then but not every hand. i will assume these were just 2 of the now and thens.

[creedofhubris]

Hand 1, opponent is a moron who got lucky after calling your turn bet with junk.

Hand 2, ouch. Slow play kills.