10-20 tough turn

[TheHip41]

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Just to reiterate what everyone else said...this hand is garbage preflop. In fact, when I see someone who never folds his SB with crap, it is a strong indicator their game needs alot of work (exception is if the game has a 2/3 blind structure, like 15-30).


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context is everything in these situations. two examples: CDC posted a hand where he limped on the button with J4s. if you saw that, would you then assume he's a bad player? you probably would, and that would be a shitty read. second, when I was in Vegas, there was a hand where I was the sb and there was a CO poster, who was new to the table. it was folded to him, he checked, and the button folded. I raised from the sb with 76o (with a tight bb). I ended showing the hand down, and a local pro sitting next to sfer apparently started commenting on how bad I play, because I raise 76o. well, he also made the mistake of nto considering context. I was against a random hand, a sub-random hand, and a tight BB.

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Even so, J5o is trash, the opponents in the hand do not matter. If it's suited, it's a whole different story. I just don't think J5 is worth fighting over. I wait for a better spot.

[sthief09]

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Even so, J5o is trash, the opponents in the hand do not matter. If it's suited, it's a whole different story. I just don't think J5 is worth fighting over. I wait for a better spot.

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OF COURSE THE OPPONENTS IN THE HAND MATTER. that is the #1 most important factor here. that's more important than the cards

[sthief09]

ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either

[sthief09]

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Fold preflop. Yeah you may be getting your return, but you can't bet your hand with any confidence on almost any flop. The fact that they "have little poker knowledge" makes it more likely you're going to a showdow, i.e. I want a better hand.


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you make money by folding the worst hand and betting the best hand. against people who are likely to go to showdown, you don't necessarily need a better hand. you just need to be a good player.

[DMBFan23]

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ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either

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sigh.

Public service announcement: this thread has been derailed from the turn action of this hand for a decision that, if wrong, is wrong by mere pennies if hero plays well postflop.

when someone asks a turn question, at least answer that question before you throw in AS AN AISDE "I would fold this preflop"

[sthief09]

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ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either

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sigh.

Public service announcement: this thread has been derailed from the turn action of this hand for a decision that, if wrong, is wrong by mere pennies if hero plays well postflop.

when someone asks a turn question, at least answer that question before you throw in AS AN AISDE "I would fold this preflop"

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it's not derailed. there is nothing to learn from the turn decision. he provided no specific reads on the players, and it's impossible to give good advice when the guy could be anywhere from loose passive to a maniac. new players all play differently. the standard would be to call down. it's not that complicated. most people won't raise without 2 pair. the turn was an overcard. it probably made him kings up. you can't fold though. what's so interesting and important about this?

what's important here is that people aren't considering their opponents' abilities. whether or not that's worth pennies or dollars here is irrelavent. understanding that, like position, superior ability enables you to play looser is critically important, and it's being completely overlooked by EVERYONE here.

[Ice]

WOA.I don't understand the game well.I told you there are bad players in the game i'm getting 7-1 on my call and i play better than them postflop.Aren't you getting a little personal?

Just out of curiosity do you take pot size into account when making your decisions?It should not be the only factor but it should be a very important factor.My example of the 10k pot size was absurd on purpose to show if the pot was big enough it can be right to call with a piece of trash.Ice

[DMBFan23]

nothing in particular, there's just a general trend of focusing on preflop decisions in threads askinga bout postflop play.

talking about preflop decisions is cool, but I think we tend to gloss over some postflop plays when we do so. if we're gonna discuss preflop, make sure we're discussing postflop too.

my main point was that "should I fold the turn" is met with "no, you should have folded pf" far too often, IMO, and not "I'd call down, however, I would have folded preflop".

EDIT: luckily, both responses lead to "no, you shouldn't, and here are some reasons why."

[sthief09]

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WOA.I don't understand the game well.I told you there are bad players in the game i'm getting 7-1 on my call and i play better than them postflop.Aren't you getting a little personal?

Just out of curiosity do you take pot size into account when making your decisions?It should not be the only factor but it should be a very important factor.My example of the 10k pot size was absurd on purpose to show if the pot was big enough it can be right to call with a piece of trash.Ice

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you're kind of right but kind of not right. you're saying that at 1-1 you should fold, and 10,000-1 you should call, so the minimum point between where you should call is the required pot size. but there are more important factors. let's say a weak tight player open limps, and it's folded to you. the BB is weak tight also. well, in this situation, you can make money by just betting any flop without an A or K, so it would be a profitable call, because your opponents have exploitable tendencies. but, if a really tough player open limped and a maniac is in the BB, then you shouldn't be completing for obvious reasons. the players matter more than the pot odds. also, I might be happier to play this hand against 2 people than 4 people. it's easier to steal the pot and the reverse implied odds on your J aren't as bad. in other words, the relationship between value and pot odds isn't always positive. sometimes better pot odds could make the hand less valuable.

in general, pot odds aren't a good guide preflop, because you really don't have anything to compare them too. if you mapped out all the potential flops and opponents' actions and saw how often you'd be continuing on the flop, your implied odds, and average equity, then you could probably compare that to pot odds, but otherwise they're not very useful.

[sthief09]

yes, in general I agree with you. people like to post and people don't like to be wrong. posting about preflop decisions that they're sure about seems good. postflop decisions are usually more difficult and people aren't willing to risk being wrong.

I post sometimes just to see if someone will prove me wrong. for a while Nate was making me his bitch, by correcting everything I said. it helped me