Overpair JJ in position on a draw-heavy board

[luckycharms]

PokerStars Game #2563659983: Tournament #12497727, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/09/13 - 00:22:57 (ET)
Table '12497727 1' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Dr. Dx (1945 in chips)
Seat 2: rebelmick13 (2920 in chips)
Seat 3: ThomasJohn (1280 in chips)
Seat 4: mrpines (1240 in chips)
Seat 5: Rob759 (3155 in chips)
Seat 6: JADE7 (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: MadMat^222 (4140 in chips)
Seat 8: J-Fly 411 (2045 in chips)
Seat 9: boardman90 (1340 in chips)
ThomasJohn: posts small blind 15
mrpines: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to boardman90 [Jc Jh]
Rob759: folds
JADE7: calls 30
MadMat^222: calls 30
J-Fly 411: folds
boardman90: raises 60 to 90
Dr. Dx: folds
rebelmick13: folds
ThomasJohn: calls 75
mrpines: folds
JADE7: calls 60
MadMat^222: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [3d 6s 5s]
ThomasJohn: checks
JADE7: checks
MadMat^222: bets 30
boardman90: raises 1220 to 1250 and is all-in
ThomasJohn: folds
JADE7: calls 1250
MadMat^222: folds
*** TURN *** [3d 6s 5s] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [3d 6s 5s Ad] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JADE7: shows [As 9s] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
boardman90: shows [Jc Jh] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
JADE7 collected 2920 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2920 | Rake 0
Board [3d 6s 5s Ad 5d]
Seat 1: Dr. Dx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rebelmick13 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ThomasJohn (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: mrpines (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Rob759 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: JADE7 showed [As 9s] and won (2920) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 7: MadMat^222 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: J-Fly 411 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: boardman90 showed [Jc Jh] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fives


I knew someone out there would play that flushdraw, and I just wanted them to pay for it... should I just raise to 200 and see a turn to reevaluate? am i giving him odds to call me?

[luckycharms]

this is a damn worthy post... nobody has a thought on how to play it better?

[ldavidjm]

Ummm....no you're not giving him anywhere near the odds to call his flushdraw and I'm happy to get in here everytime with against the draw. If you have a read that you think someone will call the allin with the draw then go for it, but I'd prefer a heavy raise and turn push to any relative blank. After I raise the pot or so on the flop I'm still shoving against the nonspade Ace with the caller. Only thing I slowdown on is a spade.

Also I think you can raise to more than 90 preflop with 2 limpers already before you. Overall I think you're pretty screwed on the hand, you can certainly play the keep the pot small game on the flop but you've got a vulnerable hand that's well worth protecting and almost is certainly still best, so giving cheap/free cards is a significant mistake in my opinion. Only way you're avoiding this is possible with the larger PF raise getting the A9 SOOTED out but that's admittedly unlikely.

[Sykes]

Limp in preflop.

Pot the flop.

I don't know why you want to be taking 60/40 chances this early in the tournament.

Would you really recommend limping in preflop with JJ? The last thing I'd want to see with JJ is a 4-way pot. With 105 in the pot before you enter it, raising to 90 is not going to chase anyone away. I'd probably raise to 150 in the hopes of getting only a single caller.

The all in bet on the flop is a huge overbet, if someone is going to fold to the all-in they'd probably fold to a pot-size raise. You could be up against a slow played AA, a flopped set, or even suited overcards which would still be a favorite to your JJ.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you want to be taking 60/40 chances this early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]


...sigh

[Paragon]

Er, A9s definitely has odds to call the allin on flop because the pot was so juiced by the mini raise pre flop.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 5s 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 9s 458 46.26 514 51.92 18 1.82 0.472
Jc Jh 514 51.92 458 46.26 18 1.82 0.528

Although I prefer to push a strong draw, calling is +cEV for villain (0.472 * 2920 =~ 1378 and he only has to call 1250)

Depending on my mood I might just push JJ pf after 2 limpers, but that's just how I goof around in the Stars 55+5 turbos. Not really sure what tourney format this is as the stacks seem mysteriously deep for 15/30 blinds (some sort of 3-table sng??) I'd probably limp along in this situation and evaluate on the flop.

I'd probably put in a mini raise on the flop to try and tease any monsters out of hiding. I think most draws, even the nut flush, would just cc the raise, optimal or not I'm not really sure. If you do only get callers then I'd just assume they're on draws, so variance willing a safe card will come on turn (there aren't many actually) and THEN you can give bad odds, or push [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[schwza]

make a more normal size raise, to ~300 or so.

[EnderFFX]

Ok first of all, yes a lot of flush draws will call that crap, but what you need to realize is more of the time you are giving at least 3 more outs because of the overcards to your jacks.

Second, you are getting more then the flushes to call you, you are also getting:

Overpairs, sets, two pairs, straights, etc.

Your raise on the flop isn't high enough to discount the trash people play. (I'm assuming this is a lower buyin tournament) Your ridiculous size raise only guarantees that people who dominate you, and flush draws, (possibly someone with a lone 4) is staying in.