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  #1  
Old 09-02-2005, 02:49 PM
justT justT is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 115
Default Flop push => weakness?

I wasn’t involved in this hand, so please don’t call the bad beat police.

Hero and Villain both have ~13BB

Villain limps in MP with J8o, Hero in BB raises 3X with AA
Flop JQK(r)
Hero pushes
Villain calls and hits J to win

Lots of questionable play here, but what I’m really interested in is Villain’s call on the flop. If he folds, he still has 10BB, he has 2nd pair and is either way ahead or way behind here. Normally I'd just write this off as Villain not thinking (after all he did call a raise with J8o), but I've seen a number of calls like this recently. I'm starting to believe that Villain is thinking and he's thinking the flop push implies weakness. Maybe stop-n-go's are being overused? Or?

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2005, 03:02 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Posts: 792
Default Re: Flop push => weakness?

Villain should fold to push. When hero pushes on that board villain is unlikely to be ahead.

Of course villain should fold preflop and fold to the preflop raise, but villain seems to be a calling station.

Hero's play is reasonable. He made a small raise with a big pair preflop. On the flop, he pushed the dangerous board. He could be way ahead or way behind, but he can't give the villain a chance to improve cheaply, since villain probably has atleast a pair or a draw.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2005, 05:16 PM
justT justT is offline
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Default Re: Flop push => weakness?

[ QUOTE ]
Villain should fold to push. When hero pushes on that board villain is unlikely to be ahead.

Of course villain should fold preflop and fold to the preflop raise, but villain seems to be a calling station.

Hero's play is reasonable. He made a small raise with a big pair preflop. On the flop, he pushed the dangerous board. He could be way ahead or way behind, but he can't give the villain a chance to improve cheaply, since villain probably has atleast a pair or a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, but I did a poor job of asking my question. I've recently experienced several hands like this, hands where your description would fit perfectly (minor exception: sometimes villains call preflop was reasonable and your second sentence wouldn't apply)

My question is whether there is something systemic going on here. Is there something that is causing players to discount a push on the flop and make this type of call? Admittedly, the only commonality might be the weak players in the low $ tourneys I play (usually $5's -$30's).
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