my poker problem

[mat]

hi everyone i thought i would post my problem and hopefully i could get some help. my main problem right now (and this has always been true about me) is i suck at math. now i realize there is a lot of math you can just memorize which i have. (such as odds of making a certain number of outs) the most difficult thing to do at the table for me is to count bets which is embarasing to admit. when i count bets in a pot i always miss a lot of other things, like reading hands well, anticipating a raise, bet, or fold. for instance normally after a session i can remember a large amount of showdown cards a person happened to play, after my session tonight (because i am trying to improve at my pot attention) i can hardly remember any plus i missed details i would normally caught that would have helped me lay down a few second best hands. i have always been most succesful when my attention to the pot is more general. is there anything i can do away from the tables to help me with this? also how much would i be giving up by just paying general attention to the pot? i am left handed right brained and can hardly count i guess. advice anyone?

[Josh W]

The good news is, in reality, you really don't need to count the pot that much/often.

I mean, if you flop a flush draw, you essentially always have the odds to call (the exceptions, of course, are when the flop gets checked around, and it's a couple bets to you on the turn in a small pot).

You almost never have the odds to call for a runner-runner flush (except in the hugest of pots).

You almost always have the odds of drawing to an open-ended straight. IF there was a preflop raise, you usually have the odds to draw to a gutshot.

Obviously, these are just a few of the most common examples. And, if you are pondering a semi-tough call on the river, is it gonna change your mind that often if the pot is 9 big bets or 11 (it shouldn't, since your win percentage only needs to be 1.7% higher in the 9 Big Bet pot).

And, if you aren't counting the pot because you are paying close attention to the hand, then in a tricky spot where you do want to know the size of the pot (say, maybe when you have an overpair, know it's no good in a huge pot, and want to know if you can call for the two outer), then because you've been paying close attention, you can call "time", recreate the action in your head, and count the bets there, on the spot.

Josh

[mat]

thanks for you advice i think what you're saying is the right way for me to play. paying less than perfet attention to the pot will allow me to pay more attention to the other things that come more natural to me.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for you advice i think what you're saying is the right way for me to play. paying less than perfet attention to the pot will allow me to pay more attention to the other things that come more natural to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is a bad idea. It's natural (and easier) to concentrate on improving the things you already do well. However, your game will improve more if you concentrate on improving the things you don't do well.

Counting the size of the pot is extremely easy to do. It just takes a little practice. It's much easier to count bets as opposed to counting the actual dollar value of the bets/pots. Also, you don't have to count each bet as it's put into the pot - you can wait until the end of the round and quickly add up the bets that went in that round.

[Chazbot2000]

I think this is personal preference. I don't count bets but do pretty much what the other poster said: know what situations call for a flush draw vs. a gutshot with overcards, etc. I seem to be able to pick up 3-4 bb an hour at low limits doing this, so I think this is a perfectly appropriate way to play.

[pokeryogi]

The way I've started to keep up with the pot is to count people instead of bets. For example, I know there was a preflop raise and there are 3 other players still in. So that puts 8 small bets in the pot and add 1/2, 1, or 1 1/2 depending on if the blinds folded.
Still learning,
PY

[schwza]

i play NL, but almost always online, where they show pot sizes (and stack sizes). when i play with my friends, i'm horrible at keeping track. i majored in math in college too - the arithmetic is not the problem. anyway, that doesn't really seem all that relevant to anything, but i can give this piece of advice:

on the turn, to convert outs to %, multiply by 2. flush draw = 9 outs ~= 18%

on the flop, multiply by 4. it ain't perfect, and it ignores stuff like the bad guy redrawing to a boat to beat your flush, but it's useful.

[Dov]

I like this idea. I still need to check it for accuracy, of course, but to include the redraws, just subtract your probable outs that will fill up your opponent.