Push with nines?

[Ribbo]

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I assume most of the players who would fold the 9JQK here would INSTAPUSH with their AAxx

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Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.

[PokerGoblin]

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Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.


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Aren't we the self-righteous one this morning.

The point of posting this hand is that this isn't the typical 'I'm either way ahead or way behind' dilemma. It goes way deeper than that.

The 9JQK hand is not an easy fold. There's a case to be made for every option. Alot of it comes down to personal preference. I am not a fan of coin flips in cash games, but if you think it will affect your table image and get you action in future hands it may be worth the gamble.

I think very little of the time UTG is bluffing and very little of the time he has a set. Not that those possibilities should be ignored, but their likelihood is less than usual.

PG

[Ribbo]

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Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.


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Aren't we the self-righteous one this morning.

The point of posting this hand is that this isn't the typical 'I'm either way ahead or way behind' dilemma. It goes way deeper than that.

The 9JQK hand is not an easy fold. There's a case to be made for every option. Alot of it comes down to personal preference. I am not a fan of coin flips in cash games, but if you think it will affect your table image and get you action in future hands it may be worth the gamble.

I think very little of the time UTG is bluffing and very little of the time he has a set. Not that those possibilities should be ignored, but their likelihood is less than usual.

PG

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You drawl on about the blaringly obvious as though you're making some previously unheard of sage advice. None of what you have just said is news to anyone who has played the game longer than a few months. As with every other rhetorical question that gets asked, the same answer is always relevant, "it depends".

His whole arguement was that most people who would fold a pair of nines wouldn't fold a pair of aces. This is utterly terrible and incorrect. He built a strawman and proceeded to knock it down. Folding of two aces in that position is quite easy for the very reasons already given by others. You've only put $4 into the pot. Indeed it was Doyle himself who said "Don't lose all your chips in an unraised pot". You really don't need to take either AAxx or KQJ9 any further if someone is being aggressive. You're playing KQJ9 to flop a nice straight wrap, not to flop 1 pair with suboptimal kicker. http://www.ribbo.com/omaha9.htm

[BluffTHIS!]

You might want to read the OP thoroughly before you comment. Although it doesn't matter much he had $16 in the pot because he raised in position after posting. And although I often criticize ace's play as too loose postflop, and I would not raise here, I did make some valid points regarding calling and aces did regarding raising, although a fold is right in *most* cases. I am tighter than aces ribbit, but the fact of the matter is that you are a weak-tight not tight-aggressive player and you never analyze the situation to see if other plays are warranted other than your usual "see if I have the nuts and can play" approach, preferably with other aggressive players behind you so you can checkraise.

Lots of players like the opponent here will bet into the preflop raiser with only 1 pair and an 8 out straight draw, and aces having position is what makes a play other than folding to be considered. Plus even the loosest players learn not to play hands with weak-tights like you if you never ever gamble with them a little. Of course I prefer to gamble in position and when I think hands other than sets are a distinct possibility.

I agree with you that some players here use the "player dependent" angle to justify playing too loose postflop many times, but if you can't learn to play the players and situations you can't win nearly as much as waiting for sets and 20 out draws postflop or getting it allin with aces preflop.

[Ribbo]

Yes but it's important to note, your opponent is not bluffing when he is betting a better hand. I hate people who say "my opponent is likely bluffing" when they having nothing themselves.

[liquid]

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I hate people who say "my opponent is likely bluffing" when they having nothing themselves.

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I wish I could find my favorite example of this. Something to the effect of: LAG bets pot pre-flop. One caller in EP. LAG bets pot on flop, turn, and river in what is obviously a terrible bluff, as the texture of the board changes radically on each street. EP quickly check-calls every time. LAG shows down unimproved JJxx. EP shows... a pair of twos.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Yes but it's important to note, your opponent is not bluffing when he is betting a better hand. I hate people who say "my opponent is likely bluffing" when they having nothing themselves.

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But it is quite possible that he is merely semi-bluffing with bottom pair and a draw, which aces' hand can beat and has position to reevaluate on the turn.

[obi---one]

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you have position, why not use it?

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Effective stacks are small, and the position doesn't do me much good. By smooth calling (as BluffThis suggested) I can make the decision to call or not call on the turn.

I did ponder this option at the time, but stack sizes make it a poor idea. It becomes problematic because there are number of turn cards that could cause me to lose my nerve. Particularly terrible cards are 7 and Ace, both of which may secure a pass when I still have the best hand.


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He may not like those cards either. Allowing you to take the pot with the worst hand. this is plo. almost everycard is a scare card. use your position. if a scare cards comes and he bets. easy to muck. this isnt close. IMO

[Acesover8s]

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He may not like those cards either. Allowing you to take the pot with the worst hand. this is plo. almost everycard is a scare card. use your position. if a scare cards comes and he bets. easy to muck. this isnt close. IMO

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I strongly disagree. Here, being in position is unfavorable. Very few opponents will do anything but shove the rest of their stack in. He has reverse position and enough for one strong pot size bet, he has all the inertia.

In your games do players often lead into a preflop raiser and then check/fold on the next card with 30-40% of their stack in the pot?

As I stated in an earlier post, my position only allows me to take another card and decide whether or not to call the next bet.

[obi---one]

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I strongly disagree. Here, being in position is unfavorable. Very few opponents will do anything but shove the rest of their stack in. He has reverse position and enough for one strong pot size bet, he has all the inertia.

In your games do players often lead into a preflop raiser and then check/fold on the next card with 30-40% of their stack in the pot?

As I stated in an earlier post, my position only allows me to take another card and decide whether or not to call the next bet.

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I just play the plo 2000 on party. I see people put in a decent part of their stack and fold to scare cards all the time. People definitley have a different mentality at those limits than at lower limits so some advice which is good for some games is not as good for other games. But, I still think a call is easily the best play, and its not close. and your argument sucks. are you saying if i have a stack of 10,000, 3000 goes in on the flop, and i am married to the hand. that is asinine. And if you are you married to hands when 30% of your stack is in the middle you will be a sure loser. How much of your stack is in the middle should have no bearing on your future actions.