Hand Vs Good Player

[Renaud Desferet]

I find this debate fascinating.
Folding is insane, and playing passively is wrong in a vacuum, because his range is so large with a button raise.
Now it might sometimes be right to call down if bluffing history is high and opponent has become ultra tenacious against you.
I am not a fan of raising the turn, as long as you often check raise the flop with made hands, because you don't usually gain much more folding equity. Your main target folding hands are the one folding the flop check raise or the turn for one bet (Ax,Kx type hands). Obviously, if you have been raising the turn a lot recently with made hands and have been called down, because you thought he was too much of a flop turn pounder, then check raising the turn might become preferable.
It is funny you almost posted the same hand one or two years ago when facing an early raise, I was in the check call camp because the raising range was so much narrower then.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
and how much do they bleed off a year to those that always seem to have something when they are pushing hard everything that looks like it deserves the pot.
did anyone think about folding on the flop or 4th street. is that a bad play, and is it so much better to build a big pot with a hand that most of your cards you are looking for can make him a little better hand.

and yes to your question. i would in this kind of spot, try to put as little in this pot i can until i thought i had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do most of these card we want make him a better hand? Most of the good players I know have a really big range on the button, and I think both his overs to the 9 are good here a lot more often then they arnt. Folding the flop does seem really bad to me. Assuming he does just call the flop, he is getting 4 1/2 to 1 to try to make his hand on the river. Thats enough right there assuming he gets paid when he makes his hand, even if we assume the J and the 10 are dead, and they wont be a lot of the time.

Most of the good players I know could open with a ton of hands there, and its also not that out of the ordinary for him to follow through again on 4th with a lot of those hands after Hiatus just calls that flop. I dont have a problem with just check calling the flop and turn, but folding before the river seems bad to me.

I also think its important to checkraise the flop at least some of the time in these spots. Always check calling here and rarely pushing one seems like it would make you too readable, and would lead to having trouble getting action with strong hands. I think being more passive here is good agaist somebody who isnt gonna put the bet in on 4th without a strong hand. It seems to me that the default for most guys on the button in that spot is to bet the flop and follow through again on the turn with most hands in his range, at least in the online games that Hiatus plays in. I just dont see it going check check on the turn all that often in those spots.

[elindauer]

Against players with TAG stats who take this WA/WB line, I raise the river with anything I'd consider calling with and some things I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

This river bet means 1 of 2 things:

- I have a weak made hand and recognize that you may be even weaker, so I'm betting intending to fold to a raise

- I have a weak made hand and recognize that you may be even weaker, so I'm betting intending to fold to a raise only to chicken out at the last minute and payoff a raise anyways

So I raise the river to figure out which category you fall into, and proceed accordingly. I also value raise top pair etc aggressively against this line, since so many people are in camp 2.

Personally, I see virtually no one donk bet-3-bet strong hands on the river, which is the play you need to make to keep me honest.

Yeah, your opponent can't possibly raise AK, because he'll get called by better hands and fold bluffs. So you use this information to bet/fold middle pair. But that means he can now raise AK against you as a bluff, so I do.

good luck.
-Eric

[etizzle]

at no point in the hand could he have been WA/WB. your post has thoroughly confused me.

[HiatusOver]

U are confused etizzle, Elindauer's post is a gem and makes perfect sense.

[etizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
U are confused etizzle, Elindauer's post is a gem and makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see how the following sentence makes any sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Against players with TAG stats who take this WA/WB line

[/ QUOTE ]

who took a WA/WB line?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
who took a WA/WB line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi etizzle,

What I'm trying to say is that from my point of view, it appears that the villain has a mediocre hand where he thinks he is WA/WB and is betting the river to get a call from AK and fold to raise. Maybe the villain has pocket 7s or something. I don't know when the river bet comes that he had plenty of outs, and it doesn't matter. The point is, his hand reads like an open book when he chooses the check-call check-call bet-a-blank river line, and I think I play my hand very well against this line.

If I've figured out how to handle this, then I'm sure others have as well and that makes using this very exploitable line dangerous, especially a good thinking player.

I'm not trying to say that his OESD is WA / WB. Sorry for the confusion.

-Eric

[baronzeus]

c/c, c/c, c/c is good...another line you might want to think about is c/c, b/c.


Donking the turn puts him in a real rough spot with overs. It looks like a weak pair that you didn't want to check raise the flop with but you also don't want checked through.

[mc1023]

this is an expensive semi-bluff or bluff if you intend to bet the river unimproved. Your putting 2 BBs to win 4.5BB if he is to fold the turn which won't be likely for a broad range of hands.

So essentially your really putting in 3BB to win 5.5BB. I tihnk against a good player I would not checkraise this board on the flop since he may pop you on the turn when led into with a wide range of hands since there are lots of draws out there.

but I don't think checkraise on a blank on the turn is a very good line in this spot either. Your representing a monster and hoping he folds a very weak hand.

Why not lead the flop or donk the turn? and call down if he shows aggression.

[PokerBob]

i am folding this river never.