I don't know what to do here : top pair, no kicker, OOP

As you can see, someone with air can easily move you off your marginal holding when your OOP. This would be a totally different story if you are in Pos.

[sweetjazz]

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The reason you dont like playing this hand OOP is becuase you can get moved off your hand much to easy having already invested money in the hand. As you can see villan put in less then a 1/3 pot bet on river and you had to fold your marginal hand becuase there was no way to check whehter your hand was good or not without commiting to many chips to the pot. It's much easier to play a hand like this in Pos where if forces the other opponent to put you on a hand and any aggression you notice will allow you to fold your hand with the minimum amount you could in this pot.

The main reason im check folding here is becuase as you can see he could be calling with air here but one river bet, even gives me 4:1 i must fold, and thats how easy it is to move you off your hand.

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Cool, I like this discussion. Would your decision change, then, if I had a solid read on my player as being loose passive, so that he would only bet hands that beat mine on the river (and check behind with worse ones)? I did NOT have such a read on the villain in this hand, but I did have a read for some of the other limpers (who ended up folding before the river).

I definitely agree that being OOP makes his hand less valuable, and that I need to consider the possibility of being pushed off my hand some of the time when it is best. Are there table conditions where the players are passive enough that you would not worry about this? Online, this might not be possible, but I am playing in a live game and it's not out of the realm of possibility that all of the limpers in the hand were weak players who bluff not at all or at least very infrequently.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
As you can see, someone with air can easily move you off your marginal holding when your OOP. This would be a totally different story if you are in Pos.

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I don't see how you are certain that the villain in this hand has air.

I doubt this player is calling two 20 bets with the hope that I will check the river so he can try to steal the pot. The only air that I can even see bluffing here is a busted draw (T9 is the only reasonable one here) or a weak hand like 43 that is trying some confused value-bluff.

Well you have to observe how often they value bet there mid/top pair or how far they go with overs [ex.AK,AQ]. Most times if your getting called by a normally passive player, yout J4 is beat. I think it would be alot different if you were OOP and holding AJ. Im still not to fond of this hand and dont usually play it aggr. but you will notice you wont be pushed off your hand as frequently as if you were holding your J4, and you can bet because you will value out of worst J's, mid/bottom pair.

[JasonP530]

Jazz----

Take some scenarios here, all of which are quite plausable. If you bet the flop and noone has a jack, you will most likely win a small pot. If someone does have a jack, and you dont pick up a flush draw, are you going to call down when he bets the next two streets(probably small)? For that small amount you bet, he can call you with T9, QT and figure he has a lot of outs. If/when you check the turn, worried he has you outkicked, he can then bet the turn(even small), and you would fold your jacks, or take a free card. If he hits, you pay him, if he misses, you dont get paid. If you are lucky enough to make runne runner flush, there is no guarantee that he has a hand strong enough to pay you off with his stack. If he has a hand strong enough, money will be going in on the flop/turn, but you will need runner runner. If he doesn't the pot will be small, but he probably wont pay you off.

Now I am not saying that you always need to fold top pair. But top pair is still only one pair, and in an unraised multiway pot, generally not that strong a hand. If a lot of money goes in, you will almost always be behind, and if youre ahead, probably only a slight favorite(flush draw+overcard, straight draw+ 2 overcards). Its just not a hand that you can play a big pot with.

[sweetjazz]

Any more input would be appreciated. The post made at 01:23 AM last night contains some simple math that I would love to hear comments on.