Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the one you just mentioned... thats for sure. You shouldn't fold and leave yourself with 10 bbs, instead of calling and getting to about 30 bbs. That fold would be pretty bad-- unless of course you want to inch up the payout structure... which is really bad in itself.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I sure don't fold KK here.

[/ QUOTE ]



o and i would call the massive overbet with KK in a cash game

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
never ever will i find a fold of KK preflop online.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ansky451]

I think it is a big waste of a poker players time to think about when to fold kings preflop, and he should be balancing his check book, or hitting on random women, or running on the treadmill, or watching TV instead. All are more productive then figuring when to fold kings preflop. Chances are you would be losing EV when you do it. This is the closest I have ever come to folding KK preflop:

From the Stars 300 on saturday, I doubled through early to 4800, and the SB in the hand has about 3600. Blinds are 15/30, and he is a sort of tricky, aggressive player, but has shown some donkeyness in the past.

Folds to the button who makes it 90 to go, SB mini raises to 150. I reraise to 450 with black kings. Button folds, sb then reraises to 2000. My first instinct is to fold because if he had queens, he knows worse hands will fold to that and better hands will call, and therefore he wouldn't put in a 4th raise with queens, only aces or kings. Then it occurred to me that someone who min raises from the SB would also have done that again with AA to my reraise. But with QQ he fears that I have an ace or king, and wants to take it right now with queens. Before when he reraised, he was juicing the pot, but now he just wants the pot with his queens. If he had aces he probably would have made it 1200, to induce me to call. So I decide he has queens and push.

So yeah, they have queens, AK, or some random worse hand more often then they have aces.

[Chief911]

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the above situation sure as hell isn't one of them.

Nick

[0evg0]

I'm not believing these responses.

Maybe the fact that the average stack in the tournament was 170k makes a difference? Even if I fold and leave myself "only" 10xbb, I'm still above the average. At this point the tournament is all-in or fold.

Villain KNOWS I have JJ+, AQs+ and whether or not it's a $10 buy-in is irrelevant. After rebuys+addons it's suddenly a $50 tournament, or even more depending. For me it was an $80 tournament - does that suddenly make it a call?

You all seem to think that this was some kind of gross overbet and therefore I should call, and that is how you rule out AA. But then please tell me a)how villain would proceed if he indeed did have AA, and b)what his range is.

Of course I called. It was against my better judgment as I put him on a QQ/KK/AA/AKs range, but believed he had AA. However, I couldn't fold KK vs 1 all-in reraise and a chance to move to #2 in chips with about 4 tables remaining.

The fact that this an extremely solid player, the fact that he is in excellent shape before the hand, the fact that he knows I have a huge calling range after committing that many chips, the fact that I've shown to be a solid preflop raiser at this table and against him many times in the past, and finally the fact that I'm the only one who could cripple him makes anything but QQ at the very least incredibly unlikely.

Now I wait for someone to tell me his range includes 99/TT because "he was OBV trying 2 accumulate!1"

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not believing these responses.

Maybe the fact that the average stack in the tournament was 170k makes a difference? Even if I fold and leave myself "only" 10xbb, I'm still above the average. At this point the tournament is all-in or fold.

Villain KNOWS I have JJ+, AQs+ and whether or not it's a $10 buy-in is irrelevant. After rebuys+addons it's suddenly a $50 tournament, or even more depending. For me it was an $80 tournament - does that suddenly make it a call?

You all seem to think that this was some kind of gross overbet and therefore I should call, and that is how you rule out AA. But then please tell me a)how villain would proceed if he indeed did have AA, and b)what his range is.

Of course I called. It was against my better judgment as I put him on a QQ/KK/AA/AKs range, but believed he had AA. However, I couldn't fold KK vs 1 all-in reraise and a chance to move to #2 in chips with about 4 tables remaining.

The fact that this an extremely solid player, the fact that he is in excellent shape before the hand, the fact that he knows I have a huge calling range after committing that many chips, the fact that I've shown to be a solid preflop raiser at this table and against him many times in the past, and finally the fact that I'm the only one who could cripple him makes anything but QQ at the very least incredibly unlikely.

Now I wait for someone to tell me his range includes 99/TT because "he was OBV trying 2 accumulate!1"

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have an odd definition of the word "know."

Because he "knows" you have a "huge calling range," you should lay down KK here? Maybe what he "knows," or thinks he knows, is that you're not likely to want to play for all your chips.

I don't think any of us "rule out AA," or at least I don't. Just because he might have the one hand that beats you doesn't mean you're supposed to fold, though.

[z32fanatic]

I put the villains range on AA-TT, AK, AQ. I would play all those hands (except maybe TT) the same way he did. Odds are he doesn't have it. You are only in 14th place, not exactly the same as the top 2 players going at it. You also only have what, 7 rounds left? Folding here is a big mistake.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not believing these responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretend you're him, or I'm him, or MLG is him, it doesn't matter. You think he/I/you are gonna reraise yourself with exactly aces and nothing else? I guess you're folding queens in that spot or something? AK? You definitely fold jacks no matter what?

I repeat: lol. I add: results oriented lameness.

[billyjex]

0evg0, in that example, someone would literally have to take my life to prevent me from clicking call. even then, my lifeless soul may find a way.