folding my Aces on the flop

Wynton · #1 12-02-2005, 10:54 AM

Villain has played 2-3 orbits, and not done much of anything, leading me to think that he's on the tight side.

It's 5-handed. I raise utg with A8o. This is a light raise for me, but I had been doing a lot of folding, and the table was semi-tight.

Button calls, sb calls and bb folds. Sigh. So much for the table being on the tight side.

Flop is AQ3 rainbow. I bet, button raises. SB folds. I reraise, and button caps. I fold.

What do you think?

27offsooot · #2 12-02-2005, 11:12 AM

why not just call down? Or else call raise, call turn, b/f river (although i much prefer a straight call down). The fold is good, given that u 3B and he seems tight, but i would rather just get to showdown, get a read, and give villain opt to bluff. I don't see how the three bet can be for value, as it allows him to get away from lesser hands and punish u with stronger and there aren't really any draws here. If behind to AK/ AJ, u have outs.

Edit - another point, villain probably let u off too easily. As he very easily could have called the three bet and then popped the turn or river. Either way, it's almost as cheap or cheaper just to get to SD (1 more sb if u fold to turn raise, 1 more if u fold to river) in most situations.

Spook · #3 12-02-2005, 11:16 AM

I think I call and check/fold the turn unimproved. 14-1 is not the best for trying for your three outer, especially because you wont know if you are ahead or behind if you do hit the eight.
You didn't post what limit this is at, so that has an effect on that, I don't think I want to be seen as someone who will fold to a fourbet. I don't want to be seen as a thinking player who will make tough laydowns/threebet lightly.

Wynton · #4 12-02-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why not just call down? Or else call raise, call turn, b/f river (although i much prefer a straight call down). The fold is good, given that u 3B and he seems tight, but i would rather just get to showdown, get a read, and give villain opt to bluff. I don't see how the three bet can be for value, as it allows him to get away from lesser hands and punish u with stronger and there aren't really any draws here. If behind to AK/ AJ, u have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that this was not the best way to extract value. But I think what happened is that I was strongly predisposed to believing that I was beat as soon as I was raised, so I wanted a bit of confirmation.

Had I been more on the fence about what villain had, then I think calling down would plainly have been best. And maybe I didn't have enough information to deviate. But I think that it's ok to take a different line like this occasionally, if we can trust our read.

27offsooot · #5 12-02-2005, 11:19 AM

I think that c/f the turn is too weak HU. Solid read, maybe, u can c/f turn, like he called down whole way with second pair/ TPWK in the past and has a low agg. Villain could have KQ here or a weaker ace or a bluff or KJ, plus u have outs if behind.

Wynton · #6 12-02-2005, 11:24 AM

Incidentally, the hand might have been interesting if villain had just called my reraise, which is what I probably would have done with AK or better.

Typically, I would have led the turn and river, giving villain a chance to soak me. But if I see this possible approach by the villain coming, then perhaps I might have considered checking the turn, and revaluated from there.

Spook · #7 12-02-2005, 11:25 AM

You do have outs if behind.
But very few. If he has AT you have three outs to win and 3+ to split. If he has AQ or 33 very few outs.
But c/f is weak, you are right. Possibly bet/f is the best line for the turn.

27offsooot · #8 12-02-2005, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You do have outs if behind.
But very few. If he has AT you have three outs to win and 3+ to split. If he has AQ or 33 very few outs.
But c/f is weak, you are right. Possibly bet/f is the best line for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
b/f turn is another viable option.

danzasmack · #9 12-02-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do have outs if behind.
But very few. If he has AT you have three outs to win and 3+ to split. If he has AQ or 33 very few outs.
But c/f is weak, you are right. Possibly bet/f is the best line for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
b/f turn is another viable option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent option I think. A lot of times if i'm on the button with an ace I'll take the button's line to cap the flop and check behind on the turn. That costs me 3 big bets (assuming you donk the river after i check the turn) to get to shodown as opposed to 3.5 - + if make a 2nd pair I'm getting more value. He may be taking a similar line.

I also think it's important to read if a player will cold call or 3 bet on the button with AQ.