The 2nd and 3rd Level

Mercman572 · #1 05-19-2005, 04:18 PM

I had read (I think in TOP or HEFAP) about playing no the 2nd and thrid level; what you thnk your opponent has, what they think you have, what they think YOU think THEY have, etc. and i was wondering, is this a waste of time at 25 and 50NL? i tried applying it against players i think it might work against but am not sure it has, here is an example:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

UTG ($27.4)
UTG+1 ($22.15)
MP1 ($22.38)
MP2 ($18.09)
MP3 ($4.75)
CO ($24.05)
Button ($24)
Hero ($28.55)
BB ($23.8)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $1.9, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $1.25.

Flop: ($4.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: ($4.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP1 calls $5.

River: ($14.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $21.55 (All-In), MP1 calls $15.38 (All-In).

Final Pot: $51.43

now MP1 had been autorated as a rock after 40 or so hands under the default PT autorate, so i figure he has some sort of significant hand. so i figure he will call a reraise. the flop comes and i figure i'm safe with a nut flush draw and no overs to worry about. i overbet the next heart thinking that hero would call thinking it a bluff (i had been caught trying to steal). then I push the river, thinking he hit something and will call me down since i overbet. while i think he called the preflop bet thinking i was trying to steal, the calls after that were obviously because he hit a king high flush (showing a KQ os). is trying to play on higher levels a waste of time at these stakes, should i just be betting hands like this for value?

jkkkk · #2 05-19-2005, 04:30 PM

i truly do believe trying to think at this level is pointless at these limits.

i have seriously tried it a few times, have read villain 100% and he still doesn't fold when he should.

ABC poker is the most effective strategy at these limits imo, trying unorthodox moves only pays off against more intelligent players.

Mercman572 · #3 05-19-2005, 04:33 PM

i realize this might not be the ebst example, the reason i started experimenting with the other levels of play is because i found a leak in my play.

i seem to always be getting burned in situations where i am betting TPGK against a flush draw and having someone call, then when the flush draw misses, checking in hopes for a bet and then calling a monster bet (pot sized or bigger) only to see TPTK. i call thinking "why would he bet so much with a better hand, wouldn't he bet an amount i would be more inclined to call? so i call thinking it a bluff. the overcalling makes me think flush draw but alot of times i am seeing a better hand afraid of betting

same situation applies where i am betting a quality hand and a flush hits, i check and a player will bet a very large amount...almost to the point where i think a player would never bet so big if they hit a flush

jkkkk · #4 05-19-2005, 04:48 PM

well if big river bets scare you, maybe you should try some PL

you have to be willing to call down an opponent if you believe he is bluffing the rivered flush.

you also have to make people pay for their draws on the flop and turn, if someone raises you, it really depends on your read.

these are just the basics.

poboy · #5 05-19-2005, 06:07 PM

I don't think this is really an example of 2cd and 3rd level, but rather just basic hand reading. You won't find many players thinking about much more than their own hands at these level though, so as far as trying fancy plays I wouldn't bother. Also where did you overbet this hand? You made a pot-sized bet on the turn and river, this is pretty standard. Villian either hit his K high flush or rivered you with a boat, so I don't think he's calling because he thinks your bluffing but rather he just likes his hand. JMO

bkholdem · #6 05-19-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i realize this might not be the ebst example, the reason i started experimenting with the other levels of play is because i found a leak in my play.

i seem to always be getting burned in situations where i am betting TPGK against a flush draw and having someone call, then when the flush draw misses, checking in hopes for a bet and then calling a monster bet (pot sized or bigger) only to see TPTK. i call thinking "why would he bet so much with a better hand, wouldn't he bet an amount i would be more inclined to call? so i call thinking it a bluff. the overcalling makes me think flush draw but alot of times i am seeing a better hand afraid of betting

same situation applies where i am betting a quality hand and a flush hits, i check and a player will bet a very large amount...almost to the point where i think a player would never bet so big if they hit a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so you know, villian in this hand is thinking on another level. He is thinking about what you think he has (and possibly actively manipulating you to put you in a position to think he has something he doesn't- checking the turn through) and putting a play on you. Unless you have a monster I think checking with a good hand is usually a mistake at these levels.

ckff93 · #7 05-19-2005, 06:57 PM

To be overly diplomatic...

You are trying to think at 2nd and 3rd levels and therefore there is one person doing it in the game you are playing, so probably there is more than one person. So in essence, it really comes down to the specific opponent you are playing. However, if you are only playing for money (not to get better overall) I would say it is not worth your time because you'll probably over think your moves and create more leakes in your game.