Can someone explain Counting Outs, Hidden Outs and Redraws?

[Joe B.]

Can someone explain Counting Outs, Hidden Outs and Redraws?

i have SSH, and i kep reading it over and over and dotn understand it well.

can someone explain it with hands samples..

thanks

[K C]

I haven't read this book, and although I've been playing for about 30 years I've never heard of terms like "redraws" and "hidden outs". Counting outs though is pretty easy. Here's what you need to do. Take the cards which are going to give you what's almost certain to win the hand for you. Say you have an ace high 4 flush on the flop. Now any heart's going to give you the win, we'll say. There are 9 hearts potentially left in the deck. So, therefore, you have 9 "outs."

Here's what you want to be careful of here. You want to make sure you're drawing to what's probably going to be the best hand. And sometimes hitting your outs may actually hit a better draw for someone else. For example, let's say you've got an open ended straight draw, and there's a potential flush draw out there as well. Now, if you hit your cards and they are the same suit as these flush draws, you could be in trouble when you make it. Some say not to count these outs, but it's better if you discount them. A rule of thumb, for instance, may be to give them half the weight, although this is going to depend on the situation. You never want to give these outs full weight though, and you always want to be careful if you hit them.

Hope that helps a little anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

KC
kingcobrapoker.com

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
although I've been playing for about 30 years I've never heard of terms like "redraws" and "hidden outs".

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Wow.

I can understand not hearing "hidden outs", but you definitely should have heard about redraws by now.

[Slim Pickens]

A redraw is a draw to a better hand once you've made a draw to some hand. Example: You hold QQ in holdem, flop is K72, turn is a Q. You have made your draw (a set) and now are on a redraw to a full house if the river pairs the board or quads if it's a Q.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
A redraw is a draw to a better hand once you've made a draw to some hand. Example: You hold QQ in holdem, flop is K72, turn is a Q. You have made your draw (a set) and now are on a redraw to a full house if the river pairs the board or quads if it's a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]


Re-draws are used commonly in Omaha and Omaha/8 - where you have 4 cards and are using 2.

If you hold KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] JT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a boad of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You have the made straight, you also have redraws to both the flush and full house. If someone else has the same straight, you currently are tied for the best hand, but you have re-draws to a better hand.

You opponent might have AKQT - off suit - giving him re-draws to a better straight (If a K or Q hits)

Of course if the Q hits on the turn, you now have more re-draws to a full house.

Does that explain it?

[jojobinks]

in hold'em, redraws are about equally as common. it isn't too often that you make a hand that can't be beat by the turn or river. if you make TPTK, obviously there will be redraws, straights are usually the same. and if the board pairs on the river, just about any hand can be beat, right?

counting outs is more complicated than just 9 if you have a flush draw. miller explains that if you have AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the board is :
6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

that the 3 A's and 3 K's are possible outs too. if you hit one of those 6, though, they aren't sure things, so they should be counted as partial outs. btw, i just reread this chapter this morning. he's a little confusing about how much to valuate different partial outs. i think he counts this type of situtation as worth 4 outs. although it looks like any of those 6 will help you, some of those times, you'll get drawn out on with two pair or something.

so the trick is to figure out what each of your draws is worth, not just the big draw (nut flush in this case). if you aren't trying to do this, you'll be calling too little. if you count all six of the a's and k's as outs, you may call too often. it's about trying to nail down as closely as possible the value of your hand.

i recommend reading miller some more. he's not easy, or as clear on this subject as he might be, but the more experience you have, and the more you study it, the more clear it'll become.

[Joe B.]

and still not clear on partial outs and what value. how many outs to give?

any hands example thanks

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
and still not clear on partial outs and what value. how many outs to give?

any hands example thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you have SSHE?
Then keep reading that section over until you pass out.

It's examples and explanations are most likely better and more complete than any you are going to receive here.

[jojobinks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and still not clear on partial outs and what value. how many outs to give?

any hands example thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you have SSHE?
Then keep reading that section over until you pass out.

It's examples and explanations are most likely better and more complete than any you are going to receive here.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. he explains why a backdoor flush is worth 1.5 outs pretty well.

other examples are not explained as well, and need to be thought through and intuited as best you can.

but any example i give (see the one i gave up a few posts) are probably going to be more muddled. he's the pro. i'm just some chump obsessed, but with a full time job.

[Joe B.]

ok thanks

i guess i was trying to think to hard why backdoor flush was given a 1.5 outs. i could not firgure out, how he got 1.5 outs

maybe it best to memorize the outs.

i just keep reading it over and over. and hopefully it will click for me.