I'd like to discuss how to play marginal starting hands in EP/EMP

[afk]

I'm only 3627 hands into my fledgling poker career, but I feel like I'm starting to get a real grip on the game - with the help of these forums and the 2+2 books.

That said, I need advice on how I should be playing some of the more tricky EP/MP starting hands. For those familiar with the HPFAP rankings I'm referring to mainly the group 4 or 5 hands, some of the unsuited gaps and medium pairs. I've basically realized that I don't feel like I have a solid strategy for playing hands like AJo, KJo, QJo, A9s, KTs etc.. and ohhh let's throw in 77 and 88 for fun.

I don't even think I know where to start with hands like these. How many limpers should I count on to limp with some of these hands (and if someone could throw in some math to back that up I'd love you forever.. I like math...)? Should I be open raising some of them from LEP/MP or should I just limp them? What about the A9s and KTs type hands, where it's easy to flop an over card and have a kicker right in the middle? If I don't flop a flush draw, straight draw or some otherwise decent hand (ie top pair or second pair) I've generally just been tossing them unless odds justify seeing the turn.

Any help would be much appreciated, or if you could even reference some reading for me (I own WLLH, TOP and HPFAP) I'd be very greatful. I think these hands are a major leak in my game and probably in the games of a lot of beginners. I for one, would like to plug it!

Thanks for any help.

[DanTheCardMan]

I'm a beginner as well, a few more hands than you have but not by much. I'll give ya my thoughts but take my advice for what it's worth.

Most of those hands I wouldn't play out of EP unless the table was loose-passive pre-flop and I didn't fear a raise. In MP the same holds true execpt that if the table was tight-passive pf, I'd limp with KQo, KJo, KTs, and A9s, and I'd raise with AJo and AQo hoping to steal the blinds. (Unless there was a player between me and the BB who would defend his blind or position, that is.) I hate QJo and almost always fold it, except on the button when it's folded to me, or in the blinds.

I never play medium unsuited connectors, especially unsuited 1-gap connectors except in the BB. Not sure I'd even complete the SB with them.

[LetsRock]

Frankly, I think that you're about 10% of the way (experience wise) to even think about mixing these hands in to bad position limp-ins. More experience will help you understand the evils of these types of hands (watch what happens when other people play these hands out of position and learn from them).

Most of the hands you reference are not good hands to be playing in EP period, and carefully from MP and LP. It takes quite a bit of self control to muck KJ, KT, QT type hands up-front because they really do look pretty, but they can be really difficult to play out of position.

In general, if you insist on mixing these into your EP and MP hand selection, it is vital that you have a very passive table (you don't want to call a raise with these hands) and it's even better if the table is fairly tight (few players to the flop) so that your big cards have a chance to be good without much improvement.

All of this stuff is real table dependent, but in general, without specific conditions, it's best to learn how to "not play them", then it is to learn how to "play them".

88 and 99 are not quite as bad as the big unsuited gappers, bt still needs to be played with care. When I'm playing these (I usually will limp with them from anywhere), I'm hoping to flop a set. You will usually see overcards on the board, so they're not great hands on their own. If you don't get overcards, then somebody probably has a straight (or draw).

I'm pretty sure HEPFAP talks about the play (or lack of) these hands. Give it another look.

[Mike Gallo]

AFK,

Welcome aboard. Read Ray Zee's essay the evolution of a poker player. This will help you to understand what you will read.

I've basically realized that I don't feel like I have a solid strategy for playing hands like AJo, KJo, QJo, A9s, KTs etc..

You have to learn when you can play these hands. I usually will alway fold AJ KJ QJ off suit from early position.


ohhh let's throw in 77 and 88 for fun.

I will play every pocket pair I can.

Ed Miller put up a great post called taking off the training wheels. Check it out.

I like to play Ax suited from any position. I have enough faith in my post flop skill that I feel confident playing this hand.

Suited connectors and suited gapped connectors I will play from late position.

The better your post flop play becomes the more hands you can play. I would suggest in early and middle position you play suited Aces and pocket pairs.

How many limpers should I count on to limp with some of these hands

Sometimes just two if you can count on both of the players to pay you off. Read chapter 7 Implied Odds and Reverse implied odds in the Theory of Poker.

What about the A9s and KTs type hands, where it's easy to flop an over card and have a kicker right in the middle? If I don't flop a flush draw, straight draw or some otherwise decent hand (ie top pair or second pair) I've generally just been tossing them unless odds justify seeing the turn.

Exactly what you should do.

Welcome aboard.

[afk]

Thanks for the advice everyone, this has definetly helped.