I wanted to call the turn...

[Ironman]

I'm over at UB 2/4 (1/2 kill).

This is a kill pot so for those who haven't played this before the blinds are 1 and 2, but the bets are 3 because the "kill" button MUST put in 3.

The kill button is two positions to my right. There are a total of 9 players at the table.

I'm dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the regular button.

Four players see the flop for 3 chips each.

Flop 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB throws in 3 more chips, I am the only one who hit the call button.

Turn 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets 6....but I just couldn't pull the trigger.


There are about 50 ways that I could have played this hand better, some of those better ways would have lost more money...but they would have been better plays.

One that comes to mind is raising pre-flop.

Any thoughts?

Dave

[Chamonyx]

Not sure if I would have raised pre-flop with 2 callers already in.

On flop, its potentially heads up when it gets to you, so I would either raise or fold here. If you raise, you may slow him down and get a free turn card - or you can represent the wheel if he doesn't bet out. JMO

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
SB throws in 3 more chips, I am the only one who hit the call button.

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Dave - In my humble opinion, calling with top and bottom two pairs on the second betting round is a mistake. From the button, against only one opponent who has bet, I think you either fold or you raise. At any rate, that’s how I’d play it.

If you had raised the flop, there would be a better chance your opponent would check to you here. No guarantees, but if you had raised on the second betting round, many opponents who are out of position would tend to check to you on the third betting round especially when the turn card misses them. (When they like the turn card they may either bet or they still might check).

The turn card is not good for you. You make a third pair, but your opponent may have meanwhile made a small straight. You’d like to see another card, but since you’re mostly playing for the high half of the pot, if you figure you need to improve to a full house to win for high, then you don’t have favorable odds to call the turn bet.

Trouble is, you can’t really tell what cards your opponent holds. You might not have been able to tell anyway, even if you had raised on the previous betting round. But the way you have played the hand, I don’t see how you can have a clue. You have position, and yet SB is out-playing you here. Sorry to seem critical, but that’s the simple truth, the way I see it.

[ QUOTE ]
One that comes to mind is raising pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have done that with your starting hand. (In general, I wouldn’t, but I don’t think a pre-flop raise with A45K-single-suited-to-the-ace, a very nice starting hand, both for multi-opponent play and for one-on-one play, is horrid). Will it be the best starting hand at the table after the dust settles? Maybe. Maybe not.

I'll try to draw an analogy. Think about someone who is taller than average, say 6’1”. Will this person who is taller than average be the tallest one in a group of nine or ten people? Maybe. Maybe not. And then if you put these individuals in a given athletic situation will the person who is 6’1” have an edge? Maybe. Maybe not.

In general, I think I’m gambling less and using more skill when I see the flop before making a move. Even when I think I know more about starting hands than anyone who is at the table playing against me, and when I know I have an above average starting hand (like A45Ks), I think I generally do better by seeing the flop before commiting myself to a particular strategy.

I need a good reason to raise before the flop. Merely having an above average starting hand is not a good enough reason for me to raise.

When you bet on a horserace, you don’t have the option of waiting until the horses leave the gate before you place your bet. But suppose you did. Would you rather bet your money before the race started, or do you think you might have more of an edge by observing the start before placing your bet?

In Omaha-8, you often have the opportunity to see the flop before committing much of your stack. Omaha-8 is much more flop dependent (and turn dependent and river dependent) than Texas hold ‘em. There’s no starting hand in Omaha-8 that has as much of an edge as a pair of bullets in Texas hold ‘em. What about AA23-double suited? I don’t know - I don’t think so, but maybe.

In terms of relative hand strength, A45Ks in Omaha-8 is maybe roughly the equivalent of ATs or KJs in Texas hold ‘em. Something like that. I don’t play Omaha-8 the same way I play Texas hold ‘em, so that it’s difficult for me to continue the analogy. I’d be inlined to either raise or fold with ATs or KJs in Texas hold ‘em. I might play A45Ks the same in some situations. Indeed, after this particular flop, that’s exactly the way I’d play the hand. But, since Omaha-8 is much more flop dependent than Texas hold ‘em, I’d be inclined to wait until after the flop to make my move.

Not always, though. At any rate, I wouldn’t necessarily raise before the flop with this hand, but sometimes I would.

In summary, not raising before the flop was not a mistake. However, not raising after the flop was a mistake.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, not raising before the flop was not a mistake. However, not raising after the flop was a mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

Buzz,

Do you have set plays for raising with top and bottom 2pr on the 2nd betting round that are contingent on the composition of the flop? For example, if a flop has 0, 1, 2 or 3 low cards? Or related to its suitedness?

Mack

[Buzz]

Hi Mack - Since I play a lot of AWWW, AWWH, AWHH hands and some AWMH hands, (A=ace, W=2,3,4,5, M=6,7,8,9, H=T,J,Q,K) flopping top and bottom two pairs, usually aces over a wheel rank, is a common occurance for me.

Flopped top and bottom two pairs is not a good situation in a full loose game when most people tend to see the flop. If you have competition after the flop, you’re basically
• (1) drawing to make a full house that probably won’t make (~10 to 1 against on the turn and ~5 to 1 against by the river) and that may not be a winner if you make it, or
• (2) there’s also the possibility that the flopped two pairs will stand up.

I don’t think you can play hands like A45Ks if you’re going to fold after a flop without a nut draw - because you simply do not get enough flops where you end up with a nut draw when you play A45Ks.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have set plays for raising with top and bottom 2pr on the 2nd betting round that are contingent on the composition of the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

An excellent question. If you’re going to see the flop with A45Ks, you have to expect to flop top and bottom two pairs fairly often. And then what?

There are so many variables when you do flop top and bottom two pairs that it’s hard to answer “then what.” I think there are at least five aspects to consider.

• (1) The more players who see the flop and the more players who continue after the flop, the less likely I am to continue with paired aces plus a wheel pair. (Thus if the two intervening players had called, I’d probably tend to fold).

• (2) If the flop has two cards of the same suit, I tend not to continue. Certainly I don’t continue if the flop has three cards of the same suit. (Thus if two or all three of the flop cards were of the same suit, I’d tend to fold).

• (3) If the flop has three cards in sequence, so as to make a straight immediately possible, or even three straight cards with one gap - that is not good. Depending, even two gaps can be scary. You don’t want to be facing a flopped straight with top and bottom pairs.

• (4) Three low cards on the flop (as here) is not good when you do not have a good chance to make low. With a pair of aces plus a wheel pair, but no very good chance for low, three low flop cards is poor. Two low cards on the flop would also be poor.

• (5) You shouldn’t like an opponent betting (as here). You should like to be the one who is betting.

O.K., Mack - that’s my answer to your excellent question.

Of the five requirements for playing flopped top and bottom pairs, two requirements are not met here.

And now I’m stuck trying to explain my original response.

Actually, I can (and originally could) see folding here. Folding here has merit, in my humble opinion.

I don’t like chasing, especially for probably half the pot.

But, well... gee... if you’re ever going to play flopped top and bottom two pairs, the conditions seem close to ideal. There is only one opponent, Hero has position on the opponent, the flop is a rainbow, and no straight is yet enabled. The two things wrong are (4) low is already enabled and (5) SB has bet this flop.

We can’t do anything about the low aspect, but maybe we can do something about the chasing aspect.

There are lots of possibilities for SB’s hand, including a pure bluff or semi-bluff. Actually, I’d guess SB probably has some sort of low, maybe 23XY or 25XY. Hard to say for sure. But maybe if we pop it here, SB will back off.

I definitely wouldn’t want to call here and then face a big bet on the next betting round. (I also wouldn’t want to raise here and then get immediately re-raised - and that’s the risk you take by raising here).

However, if you’re going to play this hand after this flop and the flop bet by SB, then I think it’s worth a one additional small bet raise. Could be SB will fold to the raise. (Also could be SB will re-raise. Most likely, I think, is SB will call the raise and then check the turn). But if only just to see what might happen, I think it’s worth one additional small bet here.

A45Ks is not an ideal starting hand. Anyone who needs to either make the nuts on the flop or be drawing to the nuts after the flop shouldn’t play A45Ks.

Next, A48n is not an ideal flop for the hand. Nobody generally should continue with A45Ks after a flop or A48n.

If anyone does continue with A45Ks after a flop of A48n, no one else should be betting.

And finally, if anyone does continue with A45Ks after a flop or A48n and after someone bets in front of them - uh, well... I think they had better raise.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

Thanks Buzz, I found the above very enlightening.

[ QUOTE ]
Since I play a lot of AWWW, AWWH, AWHH hands and some AWMH hands, (A=ace, W=2,3,4,5, M=6,7,8,9, H=T,J,Q,K) flopping top and bottom two pairs, usually aces over a wheel rank, is a common occurance for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could I have your thoughts on when the "H" hands mentioned above flop top and bottom with H-W? I think a lot of the theory would be the same, but a consoling factor of hitting an A is that you may dink an opponent's low draw. This isn't always the case when you hit an HW 2pr...

[Buzz]

Hi Mack - Let’s suppose you hold an AWHH hand such as
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the flop is 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Your chances for low are remote after this flop, but you have flopped two pairs, queens over deuces. Anybody would need two running cards to make a flush or straight. Flopped top and bottom pairs is not good, but with not many opponents in the hand, you might eke out an unimproved win for high (plus about 20% of the time, you'll improve).

If you’re going to continue playing, I think you want to immediately take charge of the hand and succeed in narrowing the field (if it is not already narrowed). Your object is to immediately get rid of anyone who might draw runner-runner to beat you with a flush or straight for high - and also to possibly knock out anybody who was also counterfeited by the flopped deuce, but who might have some sort of non-nut back-up low draw.

Since you have one queen and there’s one queen on the flop, it’s doubtful an opponent has top set (queens). Thus you play the second betting round as though you have flopped top set. You don’t want to be called here, but if you do get called, you want it to be by someone who is strictly going for low.

But if the field is not already limited, or if you cannot limit the field with a bet or raise, you shouldn’t much want to be playing flopped two pairs, queens over deuces. You definitely should not want to be chasing with flopped queens over deuces - and for two reasons.

(1) Two pair is not likely to stand up if there are many players in the hand.

(2) You're drawing to make a full house, but when you do make a full house with top and bottom flopped pairs, queens over deuces, probably something like a fourth of the time it won't be a winner.

Thus two pairs, queens over deuces, after the flop is truthfully not a very good Omaha-8 holding - (but that doesn't mean I won't play it sometimes when I think conditions are right to very possibly turn it into a winner).

With an ace in the hand, you’re somewhat protected if an ace comes on the turn or river (you’ll have aces over queens), but you're vulnerable to a king on the turn or river. Thus you certainly cannot afford to have anyone with a king getting a free or cheap draw.

You’re almost surely not going to end up with the nuts on the river. Anyone who can’t handle not ending up with the nuts on the river should immediately fold flopped top and bottom two pairs. If you do play flopped top and bottom two pair hands, without much else going for them, I think you want to have a very good feeling for what cards your particular opponents might be holding.

I don’t think playing flopped top and bottom two pairs is for everyone. Lots of pitfalls. But even a flopped top set of kings has pitfalls. How many times have we flopped a set of kings only to lose to a crummy straight or baby flush when the board didn’t pair on the turn or river? Well.... as you know, it happens more often than not.

Should you play queens over deuces for probably half the pot when you started with A2JQs and the flop is 27Q? Well... one can certainly make a very good case for folding. But if you do continue, well... I think you may have to make something happen. Thus I don’t think you can make a very good case for checking and calling (chasing) with flopped top and bottom two pairs.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

Buzz,

Thanks for your well-reasoned reply.

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think playing flopped top and bottom two pairs is for everyone. Lots of pitfalls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true and very important.

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But if you do continue, well... I think you may have to make something happen. Thus I don’t think you can make a very good case for checking and calling (chasing) with flopped top and bottom two pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The crux of the matter. Thanks again.

Mack