check-raise draw

[ravballz]

As a rule of thumb you might not want to thin out the field with a draw. You'd rather want to raise the flop when you're last to act (i.e checkraise on the SB when the BB bets, etc.).

On this hand I usually bet the flop.

[JoeAbrams]

[ QUOTE ]
As a rule of thumb you might not want to thin out the field with a draw. You'd rather want to raise the flop when you're last to act (i.e checkraise on the SB when the BB bets, etc.).

On this hand I usually bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I understand this.

But this hand, this draw, I think it's better to check-raise and possible fold a domniating ace.

However, as it's been pointed out a lot of dominating aces wont fold this flop.

I still kind of like the raise .. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I'm a fish tho .. :P

[ravballz]

Yeah, but even IF you do get some of them to fold their AK AQ, you only have 2 outs to the A, which is not something I'd be playing to hit. Your straight will take down this pot a very large amount of time, no matter how many others there are in the hand.

I'd think you get more value from calling and get extra money in the pot from the other players than you get from winning when one of your 2 extra ace outs hits.

[JoeAbrams]

I think there is a real possibility that the sb is raising with as little as a draw -- yes it's a bit of a strecth, but certainly not totally unrealistic.

[chief444]

Is this check/raise really as bad as everyone but Noodles seem to be saying? It actually seemed like a pretty decent play to me when I read the hand especially considering UTG very likely has a better ace that he may just fold rather than call two cold.

[witeknite]

When you factor in your back-door flush draw, you have about 38% equity if your A outs are no good. If you get a dominating A to fold, you increase your equity on the flop to 46% do gaining 2 outs. In odds format this is 1.6:1 and 1.2:1 respectively. If you figure at least 2 callers if you lead, you get 2:1 money on a 1.6:1 shot. This will show a profit. If you c/r and only the flop bettor calls (which is the likely action) you are getting 1:1 money on a 1.2:1 shot. This will cost you money.

WiteKnite

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
But this hand, this draw, I think it's better to check-raise and possible fold a domniating ace.

However, as it's been pointed out a lot of dominating aces wont fold this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but noone seems to realise that if a dominating ace or reverse dom ace calls they are only getting 11/2 couse of your cr, they are paying too much they are making a mistake!
getting your opponents to make mistakes is good

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
When you factor in your back-door flush draw, you have about 38% equity if your A outs are no good. If you get a dominating A to fold, you increase your equity on the flop to 46% do gaining 2 outs. In odds format this is 1.6:1 and 1.2:1 respectively. If you figure at least 2 callers if you lead, you get 2:1 money on a 1.6:1 shot. This will show a profit. If you c/r and only the flop bettor calls (which is the likely action) you are getting 1:1 money on a 1.2:1 shot. This will cost you money.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll use your numbers:

Lead+2 callers = 38% equity and 11 SB pot after flop.
.38 equity * 11 SB = 4.18 SB's

Check/raise and one caller = 48% equity and 12 SB pot.
.46 equity * 12 SB = 5.52 SB's

So with your assumptions check/raising would be better. You need to consider pot size. I honestly think it's closer though than your assumptions show but this does show why I don't feel it's at all as bad as most seem to think. Check/calling is another option that probably isn't really bad either.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this check/raise really as bad as everyone but Noodles seem to be saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

i am the lone voice [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
also what do you think of my point about making reverse dominating aces pay 11/2 to see turn,having just 5 outs,isnt that a good reason to raise

[chief444]

I think it's better for hero if the aces fold since it's a decent pot and he'd rather increase his equity in addition to possibly taking the pot down without showdown or even very occasionally winning unimproved. But it's not really hurting hero much if they call since he's got a decent draw. It's probably close no matter how you look at it. At least it seems so to me but I've been wrong many times before.