Lets end the Stupidity Please

[pfkaok]

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His whole theory is based on the fact that he plays poorly postflop(his words not mine). So basically instead of getting better he wants to be a pushmonkey. That is just dumb thinking.

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i honestly don't know why i'm takin the time to respond to the same exact, thoughtless comment again. so this will be it for me. but here goes...its not Betgo, or anyone elses inablity to play with a midsized stack. the fact is that ANY PLAYER, no matter how great he is, or how much he studies, simply can't play as profitably with a mid stack. you SIMPLY have to avoid certain spots and fold when if your stack size was very large, or very small you could take advantage of.

[betgo]

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His whole theory is based on the fact that he plays poorly postflop(his words not mine). So basically instead of getting better he wants to be a pushmonkey. That is just dumb thinking.

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I said I play better preflop. That makes this approach particularly better for me. However, that is not the whole basis of the theory.

Sklansky has done very well is PSI2 playing push/fold. In his HU match with Ivey, he tried to prolong the match so the blinds were larger so that his strengths would be magnified and Ivey's diminished.

"Jesus" Ferguson is also noted as a move in artist.

Preflop play is generally the strength of mathematical/strategic players.

[pfkaok]

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did you even read my first response. as I said, your idea is wrong, all the insult spewing both ways in the thread was stupid, thats what the title of my post was talking about. if you dont want to reply to the contents of the post, obviously thats your perogative.

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sorry, i was fed up by all the insults so i responded to the other one first.

[Exitonly]

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The idea that it is good to be in the "red zone" because you will have more +EV situations is stupid.

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If you want a response to your ideas, don't preface them with the statement that my idea is "stupid".

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Oh quit it, try and defend your point. I responded to your post 3+ times without (i think) saying it was stupid, and i backed myself up, but you didnt respond to any of them. And MLG made some good points, so what if people think your 'theory' is stupid. Defend it, if youc an.

[MLG]

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this is probably the most thouhtful response to go against betgo's idea, but i still believe its flawed. you're only looking at the double ups. they are part of the reason that having a redzone stack is good, but another, IMO more important reason, is that if you pick you spots well, and know the tendencies of the plaeyrs behind you, you can easily stay afloat, or pick up a little chips by pushing a bit more than once per round.

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you can do that with more chips too, just by raising instead of pushing.

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it seems like a catch 22, but i think there's a lot of truth to it. you can get called by weaker hands and be more likely to double up, while at the same time pick up a lot of decent sized pots when they have garbage. its a bit like doyle's theory in super system where he can pick up tons of pots, while at the same time gets looser action on his really good hands.

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You can't assume that you can pick up blinds with impunity and also usually get it in with the best of it. Either, you have a good chance of not getting called and picking up the blinds, or you have a good chance of getting called by medium strength hands (meaning you will get it in with the best of it) and a smaller chance of picking up the blinds.

regardless none of it is enough to make up for the fact that you can only win half as many chips as you can with a bigger stack. it might be easier to play, but your expectation in the tournament is surely much lower.

[rockythecat99]

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His whole theory is based on the fact that he plays poorly postflop(his words not mine). So basically instead of getting better he wants to be a pushmonkey. That is just dumb thinking.

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i honestly don't know why i'm takin the time to respond to the same exact, thoughtless comment again. so this will be it for me. but here goes...its not Betgo, or anyone elses inablity to play with a midsized stack. the fact is that ANY PLAYER, no matter how great he is, or how much he studies, simply can't play as profitably with a mid stack. you SIMPLY have to avoid certain spots and fold when if your stack size was very large, or very small you could take advantage of.

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I am sorry but this is ridiculous. I am by no means trying to say betgo sucks but his idea is ridiculous. So you are saing that phil ivey can't play a middle stack so he should just fold his way into the red zone and just push. YOu wont find that many great all in opportunities. What happens when you are card dead??? Plus that whole preflop is for strategic person is baloney. There are many sng pushmonkeys who do well by just pushing what strategy is in that?

[pfkaok]

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You can't assume that you can pick up blinds with impunity and also usually get it in with the best of it. Either, you have a good chance of not getting called and picking up the blinds, or you have a good chance of getting called by medium strength hands (meaning you will get it in with the best of it) and a smaller chance of picking up the blinds.

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well. IMO this is where the debate starts to get interesting. as i said before, i'm not certain that this theory is true, but i believe it very well could be, and its pretty complicated stuff thats hard to prove conclusively one way or the other. which is why i think its very interesting.

i think what you might be overlooking here is the fact that with 6-10 BB, your PF push has more FE than a normal 3x raise when you have 12-15BB. this is why if you pick your spots you can easily stay afloat and gradually pick up chips. the range you get called with isn't huge if you pick your spots and don't push junk with your 8 BB stack into a BB with 60BB who'll always call. you WILL get a lot of folds still. obviously the calling range when your short (as long as you're not hopelessly short) will be larger than the calling range if you push with a 12 BB stack. but that might mean that they're calling with their top 15-20% of hands, rather than only their top 5-10%. so it means you can "have your cake and eat it too" in a sense. most of the times you'll still get folds and pick up what in the pot, but the times you do get called you're less likely to be up against AA, or KK and be totally destroyed, so youre equity when called will be much greater.

[MLG]

lets start with this question. when you have 6BBs how often do you think you make it to 12BBs either by doubling up or by chipping up?

[pfkaok]

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So you are saing that phil ivey can't play a middle stack so he should just fold his way into the red zone and just push.

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NO. but i woudln't be suprised if Ivey, or any great player was willing to gamble a lot more when they have an in between stack. he might take a breakeven bet that would land him either as a redzone stack if he loses, or a huge stack if he wins. its NOT saying you WANT a short stack. its saying that havin a short stack isn't THAT BAD, and its worth risking become short if you have a chance to get a monster stack... possibly even if the gambe is slightly -EV.

[rockythecat99]

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So you are saing that phil ivey can't play a middle stack so he should just fold his way into the red zone and just push.

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NO. but i woudln't be suprised if Ivey, or any great player was willing to gamble a lot more when they have an in between stack. he might take a breakeven bet that would land him either as a redzone stack if he loses, or a huge stack if he wins. its NOT saying you WANT a short stack. its saying that havin a short stack isn't THAT BAD, and its worth risking become short if you have a chance to get a monster stack... possibly even if the gambe is slightly -EV.

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How big of a -EV gamble are we talking about???